Central Cascades permit fees announced

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jessbee
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by jessbee » October 21st, 2019, 5:40 pm

poppacouch wrote:
October 21st, 2019, 12:07 pm
What is the best method to voice meaningful opposition to this plan?
From the original post:
Comments on the special recreation permit fee be mailed to the Willamette National Forest, ATTN:
Recreation Fees, 3106 Pierce Parkway, Suite D, Springfield, OR, 97477. Comments can also be submitted
by email to [email protected] or dropped off at any Willamette or Deschutes
National Forest office during business hours.

Every comment matters. The more the better. Please send your comment in.

Anyone want to organize a series of key points for hikers to consider putting in their comment letters? Matt? Nate?
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justpeachy
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by justpeachy » October 22nd, 2019, 8:27 am

Bosterson wrote:
October 21st, 2019, 1:06 pm
To the TKO people who are listening here :roll: will there be an official position on this?
I've been told that TKO is reviewing the proposal and working on a response to submit to the Forest Service by the deadline.

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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » October 22nd, 2019, 10:39 am

I'll get some bullet points here.

In contact with the Western Slope No Fee coalition, they say:
..the act of designating hiking in a Wilderness as a "Specialized" use. That has not yet been adjudicated but it is ripe for it..
From the text Kathy kindly linked to that was congressional discussion the sec of interior says:

from 2005:
SPECIAL RECREATION PERMITS

REA authorizes the Secretary to issue a special recreation permit and charge a fee in connection with the issuance of a permit for specialized recreation uses of Federal lands, such as group activities, recreation events, and motor vehicle use. The Forest Service issues special use permits under this authority for short-term commercial recreation uses, such as outfitting and guiding, and recreation events. The permit fee revenue collected and expended on the ground will be of great benefit to recreation visitors as well as to the permit holder. Facilities used by commercial outfitters such as trails and trailheads will be better maintained which will improve the ability of permit holders to provide high quality recreation services to the public.

This authority is also used to issue special recreation permits to individuals for activities such as, white water river trips, off- highway vehicle (OHV) use and, in a limited number of cases, wilderness use. These permits are issued when we provide additional services beyond normal operation and maintenance, including constructing and maintaining specialized trails for OHVs and providing wilderness experiences in areas that receive high use.

We currently require a wilderness permit and permit fee for 8 of our 406 Congressionally designated wilderness areas that are within the National Forest System. These 8 areas had a permit prior to the enactment of REA that was authorized under the LWCFA. They include areas such as the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness on the Superior National Forest in Minnesota and the Desolation Wilderness Area on the Eldorado National Forest in California. Each of these areas has special circumstances such as an allocated visitor use system, reserved and designated campsites, and, in a few areas, an aerial sewage removal program that entail costs beyond those incurred in our normal wilderness management program.

We are developing criteria to guide to our field managers in determining when such a fee is appropriate. We do not anticipate a large number of additional fee areas. We have no intention to use the fee authority as a tool to reduce recreation visitor use. Any decision to implement a permit system to allocate use in wilderness areas to meet management objectives will be made through our land use management planning process and associated recreation capacity analysis.
So they have not used the permit system to reduce recreation visitor use directly, they've (Deschutes and Willamette) 'properly' couched it in their land use management planning and recreation capacity analysis. As a non-scientist without the funds, I don't even know on what grounds one would provide competing research or how to challenge the findings from the FS, they're almost uniquely tailored that any results of increased use can more or less fit their land management planning/forest plan etc.

I would immediately say that the CCWSP contradicts the idea of 'a large number of additional fee areas'.. we've got 79 actually in just 2 wildernesses alone.

I guess I'd attack this best stating that it is only allowed under limited use in areas that have seen high use.. You think Breitenbush Lake by the PCT gets high use? Woodpecker TH? please. The 'anticipating for the future' or overflow from people who can't go to where they want to due to permits, is really outside the scope of what a specialized permit is for.
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A. Hugh Jass
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by A. Hugh Jass » October 24th, 2019, 2:53 pm

Two open-house events scheduled:
The first open house will be held on Monday, Nov. 4, from 5:30 to 7:00 p.m. at the Sisters-Camp Sherman Fire Station, 301 S. Elm St, Sisters.

The second open house will be held on Tuesday, Nov. 12, from 5:30 to 7:00 p.m. at the Deschutes National Forest’s Bend-Ft. Rock Ranger District, 63095 Deschutes Market Road, Bend.

Both open houses will begin with a brief presentation about the proposed fee structure followed by an opportunity for people to visit informally with Deschutes National Forest leadership and staff about the proposed fee structure and to provide written comments.

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jessbee
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by jessbee » October 24th, 2019, 3:35 pm

A. Hugh Jass wrote:
October 24th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Two open-house events scheduled:
The first open house will be held on Monday, Nov. 4, from 5:30 to 7:00 p.m. at the Sisters-Camp Sherman Fire Station, 301 S. Elm St, Sisters.

The second open house will be held on Tuesday, Nov. 12, from 5:30 to 7:00 p.m. at the Deschutes National Forest’s Bend-Ft. Rock Ranger District, 63095 Deschutes Market Road, Bend.

Both open houses will begin with a brief presentation about the proposed fee structure followed by an opportunity for people to visit informally with Deschutes National Forest leadership and staff about the proposed fee structure and to provide written comments.
Thanks for sharing, I will definitely be there.

If anyone can't attend and has questions you want me to ask, send me a PM.
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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by retired jerry » October 29th, 2019, 5:28 am

https://www.outsideonline.com/2404439/p ... it-changes

changes all along the PCT for thru hikers - limited number of permits per day...

"Across the board, the new, expanded permits aren’t intended to persecute already overwhelmed hikers but rather help protect the sensitive wilderness areas surrounding the PCT. According to figures on the PCTA website, last year the trail had 160 southbound hikers beginning their trek on July 1, while only 13 people signed up to start hiking on June 29. When 160 people traverse a delicate, alpine landscape en masse, it can have a serious negative impact on the campsites and waterways those same thru-hikers will come to depend on. Larabee sees the new regulations as necessary to ensure that human impacts on the landscape do not become irreversible. “Reducing crowding by distributing people more evenly over time will protect the fragile environments the trail passes through and will enhance the user experience for all,” he says."

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jessbee
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by jessbee » November 7th, 2019, 3:46 pm

More open houses announced:
Open house details:


Salem:

Tuesday, November 12, 5:30pm -7:00 pm
Chemeketa Community College, Winema Center
4001 Winema Place NE, Salem, OR



Bend:

Tuesday, November 12, 5:30pm -7:00 pm
Deschutes National Forest’s Bend-Ft. Rock Ranger District
63095 Deschutes Market Road, Bend, OR



Eugene:

Thursday, November 21, 6:00-7:30 pm
Hilyard Community Center
2580 Hilyard St., Eugene, OR


Contact Matt Peterson at [email protected] with questions or if you require special accommodations.
I'll be at the Bend meeting next week. Maybe if everyone floods Matt Peterson with requests to hold a meeting in Portland they'll have one for you there.
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RadioHiker
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by RadioHiker » November 12th, 2019, 10:03 pm

I've read through the first bits of this thread but got bored. Bottom line for me is it will be a cold day in Hell before I pay for the privilege of hiking and backpacking in our national forest lands. I have yet to get a ticket for parking at a trailhead without a NW Forest Pass, but when it does eventually happen, I'll be sending a nice, polite, "Eff You" letter to the agency ticketing me, referencing the relevant appeals court cases which have ruled the fee system unconstitutional.

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by retired jerry » November 13th, 2019, 6:35 am

My buddy got a ticket, except he actually had a NWFP pass in his window. He paid the ticket anyway - he's a rule follower :)

Yeah, no need to read all 7 pages. Therapeutic for the posters though.

I don't know what I'll do, probably just pay. If I don't and get stopped, should I say "I didn't know about it" or should I say "I refuse to pay because it's illegal"? I don't know...

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BigBear
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by BigBear » November 13th, 2019, 9:19 am

A friend of mine got a ticket at Eightmile Creek TH even though she had one of those unambiguously prohibited NW Forest Passes displayed. The concessionaire there obviously was looking for a little extra money. She didn't pay any money, just returned the ticket to the concessionaire noting that she had the pass and left. She was not contacted again.

I am outraged by USFS arrogance when it comes to lining their pockets will ill-gotten booty from unsuspecting hikers. Too bad our representatives can't remember who elected them. I have been disappointed in both Wyden and Merkeley on this issue. They seem to be on the side of the tax-and-spend government. Too bad an election year isn't coming up. Oh, wait, there is one coming up. :)

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