ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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Guy
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Guy » December 21st, 2018, 2:24 pm

Spending time in Germany ruins my normal American transportation thinking, sorry.
Unfortunately Oregon doesn't know how to do mass transit on a budget, Europeans are much better at that!

Now a narrow gauge steam railway up the Gorge I'd be all for that, costs be dammed :)
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bushwhacker
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by bushwhacker » December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm

I tried really really hard to come up with some positive suggestions as a survey response and not just a bunch of rants and it was sooooo hard.

Some of the stuff in there just drives me nutz.

As with any new money generating scheme there has to be a new bureaucracy created. In this case it's item number ST6.
With a start up cost of up to $500,000 and a seasonal/annual cost of up to $500,000 we get the Transportation Management Association (TMA). Paid for of course with the parking fees. Their job, which only another bureaucrat would understand, would be to 'provide an institutional framework for programs and services and allow partners to collectively provide transportation services'. Sound definitive to me :evil:. And of course once created the TMA will live forever with wages and benefits that the rest of us can only dream about. And if the parking proceeds don't meet expectations then the rates will go up but TMA staff will never be cut. Thanks for letting me rant. I feel better already :D .

Question: It mentions in the Outreach Strategy that various stakeholders had input into this process. One of those listed stakeholders was TKO. Did anyone representing TKO actually take part in any of this? How come no one seemed to know about this until yesterday? It seems like a big deal impacting a lot of people.

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Bosterson
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Bosterson » December 21st, 2018, 4:40 pm

bushwhacker wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm
Question: It mentions in the Outreach Strategy that various stakeholders had input into this process. One of those listed stakeholders was TKO. Did anyone representing TKO actually take part in any of this? How come no one seemed to know about this until yesterday? It seems like a big deal impacting a lot of people.
Wow! I would also like to know this... :shock:
Will hike off trail for fun.

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Water
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Water » December 21st, 2018, 5:28 pm

provide an institutional framework for programs and services and allow partners to collectively provide transportation services
good catch!

Yeah, the state parks and the forest service don't provide programs or services! We need an agency to help provide an institutional framework! Seriously... biggest bunch of BS I ever heard. And I've read a lot about NWFP and MSH permits. :lol:

sent my comments. eviscerated them in it, emphasizing lack of equitable access and the entirely reactionary measures here, money grab from the public, and emphasize that the only pro-active response is more access, more trails, more transportation modalities/opportunity.
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Chip Down
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Chip Down » December 21st, 2018, 6:41 pm

retired jerry wrote:
December 20th, 2018, 12:42 pm
Yeah, I don't know that congestion has to "be fixed"

Let people know when it's over crowded so they can go somewhere else
But...but...but Jerry, what about the need to regulate us, what about the need for ever-increasing bureaucracy and red-tape, what about big-brother watching out for us? What about gov as an ever-increasing segment of the economy? Under your scheme, how will gov extract more money from us?

Seriously, what I've seen of gov attempts to control traffic in the gorge has been an abysmal failure, a disgusting disgrace, a shameful exhibition of stupidity and incompetence. It's amazing I haven't lashed out in violent display of outrage. I'm not exaggerating the least bit, I've had encounters with rangers that left me stunned at how worthless and contemptuous they were. I can't even fathom the concept of politely submitting online objections to their nonsense. What we really need is the kind of action I can't mention here, because it would be edited (understandably so; I realize Trailkeepers can't be a hotbed of revolutionary advocacy).

Sometimes when I post stuff like the above, I expect a backlash, but the thing is, I've seen some of our most venerable mature gentle kind members post similar rants. I know I'm not alone in my thinking.

Thanks to the OP for bringing this up. It escaped my notice. Just weeks ago, somebody posited that the next step would be increasing meddling in the gorge, and wow, here we are.

Incidentally, there are a lot of documents to sift through. Complicated. Seems there should be a simple two-or-three page summary somewhere, but of course that's anathema to gov, with their love of complexity.

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Chip Down
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Chip Down » December 21st, 2018, 6:56 pm

Here's the feedback I provided:

Please share any comments about the draft implementation strategies and outreach plan.
FXXX you. [I spelled it out; only edited here in case TKO prefers a modicum of decorum]

Please share any comments about the draft public outreach strategy.
This is a sham. You don't care about public comments.

Is there anything else you would like the project team to know?
You people should get real jobs and stop preying on the taxpayers.

I know, not very diplomatic. But don't fool yourself, they don't care. Their minds are made up.

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Chip Down
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Chip Down » December 21st, 2018, 7:00 pm

bushwhacker wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm
I tried really really hard to come up with some positive suggestions as a survey response and not just a bunch of rants and it was sooooo hard.
I just couldn't do it! :lol: Congrats to you. They need to see some rage, but it's also okay if some of us want to be rational and present calm reasonable arguments, even though they'll go straight to the dustbin.

Aimless
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Aimless » December 21st, 2018, 10:08 pm

What about gov as an ever-increasing segment of the economy?

Not to be contentious, but I believe I've seen credible statistics that show government employment has been decreasing as a percentage of the overall economy ever since the start of this century. Not by a huge amount, but its share is definitely getting smaller, not larger.

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Water
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Water » December 21st, 2018, 10:14 pm

It's been an interesting observation watching things unfold in our backyard (the gorge with this, the central cascades with their situation).. that even with very local actions, the amount of bureaucratic/legislative 'expertise' you must be steeped in, the deadlines, and the review and analyzing of significant documents... It is a lot for the average person to take on, to effectively counter/get input/mobilize against. Or it feels as such to me. All of these things feel like they are basically a collegiate mini-course. Maybe my expectations for my own response are too high..

And I realize we as a society are under-informed, over-stimulated, over-stressed..

It just feels like even for a really local thing the deck is stacked against. You can reach out to elected officials but that also feels futile..
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retired jerry
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by retired jerry » December 22nd, 2018, 8:06 am

usspendtime.jpg
usspendtime.jpg (22.14 KiB) Viewed 308 times
"government employment has been decreasing"

This is spending, not employment, but most of spending is employment

Spending made a big increase from about 1930 to 1975, since then it's been pretty stable but bounces around a little

This is just federal, but states and local are similar

Personally, I'm okay with spending at current levels, maybe we should not increase from here. Just move spending around.

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