hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 21st, 2018, 12:41 pm

Don Nelsen wrote:
April 18th, 2018, 6:45 pm
I hike a lot (47 hikes and 265 miles YTD)
I need to retire! :lol:

(Only been out 24 days, so far, this year. But 376 miles! :D)
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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm

obera wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 7:41 am
I was on my way to Paradise Park once and at a junction doing something with my pack or poles. Some guy stopped and began giving me directions and information and telling me what to do where. I was probably just getting a snack or adjusting a layer and in no way indicating distress. The guy probably talked for 5 minutes. Unsolicited. Unneeded.
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)

Woodswalker and I laughed for a mile, probably, one day when we were looking at a map along the Salmon River trail (for place or creek names, as I recall), and a young 20-something couple stopped to offer help and directions. Some people simply share compulsively. :)

Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
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chrisca
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by chrisca » April 21st, 2018, 1:30 pm

My 2 cents:
As someone who came out later in life and has participated in both mainstream and LGBT hiking groups, I think the idea of LGBTQ+ hiking groups is fantastic. There is far more nuance to the situation than most people appreciate or might understand. It's not just about feeling comfortable on the trail, though that's a major consideration. Most straight/white folk in our region might not realize the following:

Hiking alone is a choice, but so is hiking for social interaction. When one is spending a major portion of time out on a trail, some of us want to interact with others and/or might even be looking for a significant other with this common interest. For the straight community, that's no problem as most of the others on the trail are your "type." For the queer community, the situation can be far more isolating. A group hike with those of your orientation makes total sense for solving this problem.

I've belonged to conventional hiking groups in the past and even been a hike leader for some of them. I encountered homophobia among not only some members, but from some hike leaders as well. Most of these clubs had no code of conduct for members and leaders, and when I suggested changes, they were rejected. At least one major group out there in Oregon today appears to have an underground homophobia policy where they refuse to partner with the LGBT community and/or put anything in print that would imply acceptance or inclusion of that community. There is no excuse for this, and no hiker should ever feel unwelcome on the trail or with a group of hikers.

When you're around others of your own orientation on the trail, it creates a better vibe for acceptance and safety. A lone hiker that's dressed differently might encounter sketchy situations. With a group, that's far less likely. The extra comfort can make the difference between going out to enjoy the outdoors or staying home or in the city.

When I'm out on the trail, for the most part no one knows about my orientation. But being white male and older, that's just luck. If I were a person of color, a woman, a bit heavier, or dressed in some way that's comfortable and expressive to me, the experience might be completely different. The reason we see mostly white heteros on the trail could well be that it becomes a self-reinforcing social milieu. Not an evil conspiracy, just a product of human nature. Most hikers prefer inclusion to segregation, but this fact of life means we need to work a little harder to encourage it and make it reality. "Amen" to Unlikely Hikers and similar groups.

At the same time, I also encourage members of the majority race & orientation groups to speak up and demand change whenever there is a subtext of discrimination or exclusion of minority groups. In our modern society, we all know about the harm social privilege can do. It's up to us all to do something about it, and not leave all the work to those in the minority.

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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Guy » April 21st, 2018, 4:40 pm

kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)

Woodswalker and I laughed for a mile, probably, one day when we were looking at a map along the Salmon River trail (for place or creek names, as I recall), and a young 20-something couple stopped to offer help and directions. Some people simply share compulsively. :)

Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
Exactly some people men more than women I think just communicate this way regardless of if they are talking to another man or a woman. Personally I think if the intention is good without malice or condescending tone then they should be accepted as such and taken without offense.
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Guy » April 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm

chrisca wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 1:30 pm
The reason we see mostly white heteros on the trail could well be that it becomes a self-reinforcing social milieu.
This has been a most interesting thread, Thanks Chip!

I'm assuming we would all agree that we should not expect to see minorities in greater numbers than their percentage of the population. While I agree that in most groups participation is less I personally don't believe that things are nearly as bad as some have proposed here.

I wont be able to track sexual orientation but since I'm a stats guy I'm going to start tracking race and gender of the people I see on my hikes to see if I am right or wrong!
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am

First: Chrisca - thank you for posting. :D

Guy wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm
chrisca wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 1:30 pm
The reason we see mostly white heteros on the trail could well be that it becomes a self-reinforcing social milieu.
This has been a most interesting thread, Thanks Chip!

I'm assuming we would all agree that we should not expect to see minorities in greater numbers than their percentage of the population. While I agree that in most groups participation is less I personally don't believe that things are nearly as bad as some have proposed here.

I wont be able to track sexual orientation but since I'm a stats guy I'm going to start tracking race and gender of the people I see on my hikes to see if I am right or wrong!
Well, if you don't think things are as bad as some have proposed then you are disregarding someone's opinion, their truth. That's just not appropriate. You can't tell someone they can't feel how they feel in a respectful way.
Guy wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 4:40 pm
kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)

Woodswalker and I laughed for a mile, probably, one day when we were looking at a map along the Salmon River trail (for place or creek names, as I recall), and a young 20-something couple stopped to offer help and directions. Some people simply share compulsively. :)

Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
Exactly some people men more than women I think just communicate this way regardless of if they are talking to another man or a woman. Personally I think if the intention is good without malice or condescending tone then they should be accepted as such and taken without offense.
Nobody should take anything how you want them to take it. People have the right to interpret their surroundings how they do. Some might say this is mansplaining. Women and minority groups have been oppressed for years and voices are starting to appear - you can either listen and be part of the change or you can tell people to take it without offense (paraphrasing) and not be part of the change... ie, be part of the problem.
kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
obera wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 7:41 am
I was on my way to Paradise Park once and at a junction doing something with my pack or poles. Some guy stopped and began giving me directions and information and telling me what to do where. I was probably just getting a snack or adjusting a layer and in no way indicating distress. The guy probably talked for 5 minutes. Unsolicited. Unneeded.
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)

Woodswalker and I laughed for a mile, probably, one day when we were looking at a map along the Salmon River trail (for place or creek names, as I recall), and a young 20-something couple stopped to offer help and directions. Some people simply share compulsively. :)

Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:

:lol: talking down to trail geezers shouldn't be a thing either. :lol:

if people compulsively sharing to the point that there's a voice out there saying 'stop mansplaining' - then why keep doing it?

This thread is largely reinforcing the point of Jenny Brusso and the reasons behind starting her group.
oh-beer-ah

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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Guy » April 23rd, 2018, 11:02 am

obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am

Well, if you don't think things are as bad as some have proposed then you are disregarding someone's opinion, their truth. That's just not appropriate. You can't tell someone they can't feel how they feel in a respectful way.
Then I guess my question is how do I debate this point respectfully if my point of view is different or should I just not debate it. This isn't meant to be an argument it's a genuine question.
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am

Nobody should take anything how you want them to take it. People have the right to interpret their surroundings how they do. Some might say this is mansplaining. Women and minority groups have been oppressed for years and voices are starting to appear - you can either listen and be part of the change or you can tell people to take it without offense (paraphrasing) and not be part of the change... ie, be part of the problem.
So again a genuine question, If I risk offending somebody on the trail with a casual comment that would not be offensive to most people is it best just no to say more than high to folks you meet out on the trail?

Thanks for you input.
Guy.
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pablo
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by pablo » April 23rd, 2018, 11:42 am

Guy wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 11:02 am
[...] high to folks you meet out on the trail?

Thanks for you input.
Guy.
You're right, this is Oregon - best to just say "How, high are you."

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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 23rd, 2018, 11:46 am

Guy wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 11:02 am
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am

Well, if you don't think things are as bad as some have proposed then you are disregarding someone's opinion, their truth. That's just not appropriate. You can't tell someone they can't feel how they feel in a respectful way.
Then I guess my question is how do I debate this point respectfully if my point of view is different or should I just not debate it. This isn't meant to be an argument it's a genuine question.
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am

Nobody should take anything how you want them to take it. People have the right to interpret their surroundings how they do. Some might say this is mansplaining. Women and minority groups have been oppressed for years and voices are starting to appear - you can either listen and be part of the change or you can tell people to take it without offense (paraphrasing) and not be part of the change... ie, be part of the problem.
So again a genuine question, If I risk offending somebody on the trail with a casual comment that would not be offensive to most people is it best just no to say more than high to folks you meet out on the trail?

Thanks for you input.
Guy.

Well, of course you're welcome to do your own informal polling. I'm just stating it won't negate the experiences of others.

Also, a casual hello is not the issue that's being spoken of. You answered this earlier in the discussion when you mentioned unsolicited information. Why answer questions for somebody that haven't been asked that they may not even have in the first place? That's the most basic way I can explain the whole mansplaining thing.

If somebody is in physical danger, that's different. When DN was talking about poison oak - that's different. But unsolicited directions, advice, information - nope. Just nope. How about just a hello and let the situation evolve?
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 23rd, 2018, 12:30 pm

obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
Guy wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm
Exactly some people men more than women I think just communicate this way regardless of if they are talking to another man or a woman. Personally I think if the intention is good without malice or condescending tone then they should be accepted as such and taken without offense.
Nobody should take anything how you want them to take it. People have the right to interpret their surroundings how they do. Some might say this is mansplaining.
Which? What Guy's saying, or what you're saying? ;)

I've always said, "People need to earn my disrespect." I respect them by default. If that's what everyone did, this conversation probably wouldn't be happening, right? I think that's not too far off from what Guy's saying, there, albeit not so directly. The "should" probably rubbed wrong, as it well could outside a friendly face to face encounter. But as a general rule of thumb, I find I get a lot less irritated with humanity in general, if I presume the benefit of the doubt on their part. That what they really meant really wasn't so lame as how it may have come out! (Particularly online!) It's hard, sometimes near-impossibly so, but it does save endless grief in the long run.
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
:lol: talking down to trail geezers shouldn't be a thing either. :lol:
Ahh, well, I just roll with it. Kids these days, huh? Passed 23 of them on my way up Silver Star yesterday, arriving on top all alone, despite the TH being absolutely full of parked cars when I arrived. Let 'em eat my dust. :lol:
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
if people compulsively sharing to the point that there's a voice out there saying 'stop mansplaining' - then why keep doing it?
It's what men do. Even (especially?) to other men. :oops:

And, to be sure, while I don't mean to make light of any of this, it does seem that intense focus on the differences that divide us mostly serve to reinforce those divisions. That's the central conundrum here... Finding the balance that actually moves things forward rather than makes them worse.
Last edited by kepPNW on May 9th, 2018, 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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