New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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Charley
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by Charley » August 4th, 2022, 5:39 pm

Water wrote:
August 4th, 2022, 12:23 pm
Travel Oregon had the 7 wonders. Visit Bend had their campaigns..I still see these things being advertised. These travel organization should have some direct tax or required contribution to land management if they're going to talk all about them.
Yes, I think so. I remember hearing that Oregon State Parks had to talk to Travel Oregon about cooling off on this campaign, because Smith has gotten so busy. If the Park can't manage or absorb that much more visitation, we probably shouldn't be sending people to it from out of state.
Water wrote:
August 4th, 2022, 12:23 pm
This is largely what Scott Silver of Wilderness Wild wrote and spoke on when he was fighting the Fee Demo. Things have pivoted from the extraction/resource economy to the 'outdoors economy', even in common language used by environmental organizations as a counterbalance to resource economy. You know, because nothing could simply exist for it's own sake, without needing to serve a bottom line for someone somewhere.. and certainly not just plain Wilderness!
I agree that things should continue to exist for their own sake, and especially wilderness (and Wilderness). However, without incentive structures that favor conservation (and/or preservation), many wild areas are at great risk for resource extraction or rural sprawl.

I wish all politicians and bureaucrats valued wild places like I do, but many just don't. In that case, we need arguments that will win in terms of policy. "Conservation brings tourist dollars to your community" has actually been a strong argument in recent years.

The result might involve some compromises (increased access has its own ecological impacts), but is far preferable to the powerful incentive structures created by the mining, logging, and sprawl industries.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Charley
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by Charley » August 4th, 2022, 5:59 pm

Water wrote:
August 1st, 2022, 10:42 pm
  • New day use fee sites will honor the NW Forest Pass as payment.
I've railed on the Central Cascades Wilderness Permit system for years. I have probably spent far too much of my life yelling into the internet void about the issue.

But I just can't get upset about these particular fee increases, at least as I understand the proposal.

While the CCW permits place restrictions on even visiting these massive Wildernesses, the MHNF proposal only places any kind of visitation restrictions on the highest few thousand feet of Mt Hood.*

The proposal's plan for "recreation sites" is similarly tame. MHNF is referring to places like popular trailheads, some forest camps, and a few lookouts. They want to increase fees on some of the sites that are currently already fee sites, and they want to start charging fees at some sites that currently do not require a NW Forest Pass.

Unless I want to climb Mt Hood, camp at a named recreation site, or be able to hike more places while not owning a NW Forest Pass, this proposal doesn't impact me at all.

Has anyone on this forum hiked here for years without a NW Forest Pass? Because most of this proposal is just increasing the number of trailheads where one is required!

So if I just just buy a NW Forest Pass and car camp at unnamed, undeveloped recreation sites (there are probably hundreds of such places in the MHNF), compliance with the proposal is easy. The CC Wilderness permit system is not easy. This is easy.

*Bosterson wrote a really well-thought out reply to my last comment on the climbing permit proposal. I was too busy to respond. I am still not bothered by the proposal, but he's not wrong.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Water
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by Water » March 15th, 2023, 11:28 pm

belated response Charley..

But regarding just adding new trailheads to require a NW Forest Pass. Sure it isn't so hard to buy one. And I have hiked for years without one parking in places it is required. One time I got a threatening pre-citation that says if you don't pay the fee, you might get a citation, with lots of official threatening language. I mailed them my thoughts and a court case and they never responded, guess it really isn't that important to them.

In Ludwig v United States the government argued at great length that the plaintiff really paid just a parking fee, regardless of all else, and thus the Government has immunity under the Oregon recreational use statute because of it. In any future lawsuit over fees 'at a trailhead' this will not serve the FS.

That aside, requiring a NW Forest Pass at new trailheads means the FS has to make capital investments to build new amenities and commit to an increased, unending outlay of services and maintenance for that site. With millions in deferred maintenance, and fees never intended to wholly sustain recreation sites (FLREA fees were intended to be supplemental to existing allocations), these trailhead privys will always be money losers that only contribute to deferred maintenance backlog.
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retired jerry
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by retired jerry » March 16th, 2023, 5:35 am

I don't normally post on the internet when I've done something illegal, but I have flaunted the NW forest pass requirement before. I have also bought them before. Sometimes I just put out my expired permit. Now I have a senior access pass that cost $10 for a lifetime which I always put on my dash. It also has the phone number of my wife so they can notify her of my demise.

The only time I got a nasty note on my windshield I actually had a valid permit, although it was visible on my dash, not hung from rear view mirror

I think there might be some trailheads with law enforcement officer that "has an attitude" that might pursue this more aggressively, although it's hard to imagine a court that would go through the process of putting a warrant out for your arrest or anything.

johnspeth
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by johnspeth » March 16th, 2023, 7:32 am

Water wrote:
March 15th, 2023, 11:28 pm
That aside, requiring a NW Forest Pass at new trailheads means the FS has to make capital investments to build new amenities and commit to an increased, unending outlay of services and maintenance for that site. With millions in deferred maintenance, and fees never intended to wholly sustain recreation sites (FLREA fees were intended to be supplemental to existing allocations), these trailhead privys will always be money losers that only contribute to deferred maintenance backlog.
You have described the problem in a nutshell. It actually disincentivizes new trailheads, road repairs, etc due to lack of funds. It's too bad they couldn't anticipate the problem when they concocted this user fee/more bathrooms boondoggle years ago. I doubt it will ever be corrected.

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retired jerry
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by retired jerry » March 16th, 2023, 8:15 am

yeah!

and the root problem is there aren't enough funds to maintain trails

so the FS has user fees for parking at trailheads to pay for trail maintenaance. But the only law that allows this requires that they provide those amenities. But then most of the fees have to go to pay for those amenities

the solution is for congress to either fund trail maintenance, or have a law that allows the FS to charge user fees for trailheads if the funds go to trail maintenance. Without requiring the amenities.

This law was really aimed at day use areas or campgrounds where those amenities make more sense. The law has then been adapted to trailheads

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Bosterson
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by Bosterson » March 16th, 2023, 12:08 pm

retired jerry wrote:
March 16th, 2023, 8:15 am
the solution is for congress to either fund trail maintenance, or have a law that allows the FS to charge user fees for trailheads if the funds go to trail maintenance. Without requiring the amenities.
Great idea, Jerry. Just like how we should make a law so all roads can be toll roads if the funds go towards paving. I definitely look forward to paying every time I turn onto a new street anytime I leave my house! ;)

Joking aside, only your first idea is a real solution. Congress needs to fund the USFS appropriately. There is only one outcome to "pay to play" laws - we'll have to pay an access fee every time we go outside, everywhere. The USFS has already basically admitted they see FLREA as a fundraising method, and will use it to try to extract revenue everywhere they can get away with it. Sure, they'll claim "70% of trailheads are still free," but trailheads are finite and they keep adding fees to more of them - think of what the situation will be in 20 or 50 years if people don't push back on this now.
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retired jerry
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Re: New & Increased Fees in Mt. Hood National Forest

Post by retired jerry » March 16th, 2023, 12:55 pm

totally agree, congress should allocate small amount of funds for trail maintenance

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