Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

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Charley
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by Charley » June 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

BigBear wrote:
June 19th, 2021, 6:49 pm
Fortunately, I didn't hit any of them with my vehicle
I don't mean to sound rude, and I am sincerely glad that you didn't run over anyone, but, honestly, this represents the bare minimum of driving competence. There's traffic on a road, and it's our responsibility not to hit that traffic. If there were a tree down over the road, or a large pothole, you'd be similarly responsible for not driving into it at full speed. If the lighting conditions make that task impossible at your current speed, the only responsible thing to do is drive slower. The Forest Service roads are full of such obstacles, as well as people driving cars, and log trucks, and OHV's, etc. That's the point of roads.

For some background on this kind of group ride (it's a social riding group, called Our Mother the Mountain, as paul2 pointed out), many cyclists started riding the gravel roads in our region in the last decade. In fact, this has become more popular all the world over.

The way you framed it ("Can't believe anyone would do such a crazy thing.. I'm still not hiking while wearing fur during hunting season.") makes it seem like the people doing it are irresponsibly glib about the safety of themselves and other road users, but the main reason people ride gravel these days is because riding on the paved roads around town feels unsafe.

Why are people seeking out gravel roads? Well, traffic in towns is worse, and gravel roads have slower speeds and less traffic. Gravel roads seem much safer to the people riding them.
  • There's more traffic around town, for sure.
  • Also, those big trucks that some people seem to love these days- the vehicles are wider, and they weigh more. Those massive front grills are actually far more dangerous, too, because they tend to hit at head height, and a human body can't roll up and over the hood ( getting knocked head on increases the impact force). This is part of the reason traffic fatalities are back up.
  • There's also a lot of vehicular harassment (ask any rider), like "rolling coal," near misses, and of course shouting of all sorts, though I don't personally know if that's changed over time.
  • As the quiet, paved farm roads around town turned into Google Maps cut-throughs tp reach subdivisions, and filled up with stressed, angry commuters, these paved roads became not fun for a bike ride, and feel very unsafe.
  • Gravel roads, in contrast are slower (because gravel!), and usually have relatively less traffic (because fewer gravel roads go to neighborhoods).
  • These rides are also beautiful- as the farms get eaten up by subdivisions, gravel roads are a remaining refuge of greenery and wildness.


For me, personally, I started seeking out gravel roads after I got hit by a pickup truck in my neighborhood. I was wearing a bright yellow rainjacket, in the middle of the day, lights flashing front and rear, and was following all the traffic laws. But, the driver didn't see me, and he drove through a stop sign as I pedaled through the intersection.

So if I sound like I've taken your posts personally, it's because I have!

It's like we can't ride anywhere without criticism and/or danger: classic rides around town (Skyline, Columbia River Historic Highway, Washington County) have noticeably more traffic, faster traffic, and bigger vehicles, and some people are now complaining that we riders should have the audacity to find quieter, less crowded routes!
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Charley
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by Charley » June 24th, 2021, 4:52 pm

Waffle Stomper wrote:
June 20th, 2021, 2:39 pm
Why am I having an overwhelming sense of sadness? I understand that bicyclists need places to ride without conflict with cars, and the other way around. It seems there is an overwhelming demand to get away and all the treasured places are becoming overwhelmed.

I wonder if this will balance out in time, post pandemic. Or, is this what we will have in the future? Not trying to add controversy, but just feeling sad.
I'm sympathetic with the sense of loss that comes with the changes to our region. Coping with a future of increased global human population, crowding near vibrant cities, and changes to beloved wild areas is sad. Not to mention the loss of our glaciers and the threat of heat waves over 110F. It's going to hurt to live with this total bummer of a world.

But the idea that it's some kind of grievable loss to car drivers that they would have to share gravel roads with the occasional bike rider or riders seems wildly out of scale to the reality. I mean, there are plenty of places where car drivers can drive without "conflict": almost all of I-84 and I-5 are closed to bikes, and the vast majority of mileage of paved roads in Oregon see very little bike traffic. Is that not enough?

Even if bike riders are present, is it really such a great loss? What's the conflict? That the driver would need to drive slowly enough not to crash into another person? Wouldn't some rockfall on the road, or a pothole present just as great a threat? Driving slowly enough to avoid objects in the road represents such a basic driving skill, not to mention a fairly low bar for human decency. With all the bad feelings in this burning world, are we not even capable of sharing a road???
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

jvangeld
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by jvangeld » June 25th, 2021, 9:20 am

I've been the idiot who has driven up dusty forest roads with glare on my windshield and just hoped for the best. Yes, I was an idiot. Yes, you can heckle me.

The proper thing to do when you can't see through your windshield is to roll down your driver's side window and crane your head out. The off-roaders know this, but I was an idiot, so I didn't. This works whether your window is covered in mud or snow or dust or glare. It also helps when you are negotiating a tough line through some ruts.

These days, I always make sure that my window is clean before I head up to the woods. And I drive with my lights on in case the people driving towards me are experiencing glare. Let's all be as safe was we can.
Jeremy VanGelder - Friends of Road 4109

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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by aiwetir » June 25th, 2021, 7:34 pm

Well said Charley, these are all things I wanted to say but didn't have the energy to put it out there so I went sarcastic :D

I would add that there should be no sense of loss to having bikes on gravel roads, far less impact that motor vehicles and there's a freaking road there already, the road ruined the treasured place already. If you are getting to your treasured place by car, it's probably far enough away that other cars don't go there yet. If it's that far away, fewer bikes will go there.

As an (ex) wildlife biologist, I do recognize the disturbance this causes to wildlife and it is in addition to the shooting and driving disturbances wildlife already experiences, so it is cumulative, but I'm not sure gravel bikes, road usage, wildlife disturbance, etc are a zero sum game.
Last edited by aiwetir on June 25th, 2021, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BigBear
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by BigBear » June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm

I can always count on Charlie missing the point. Bright colors. Being seen. Safety. Taking some personal accountability.

And yes, just as when hikers starting hitting the tail, it was a sad day for equestrians, and for hikers it was when bikes started hitting the trails. It is a sad day that now they bikes are on the gravel roads now for autos.

Sharing the road, Charlie? I always shake my head at that one. I see more road rage moves by persons with "Share the Road" plates than any group except the Audi/BMW/Mercedes. Sorry if you are in one of these groups, but seriously, take your own poll next time your out on the road. Share the road has become a punchline to a joke. I'd just be happy if people followed the "rules of the road."

My father always said bikes should be licensed. He never liked me pedaling on the shoulders of roads (roads were made for cars, he'd say) The funny thing: bikes were licensed at one time. They were licensed by city, not by state (not sure how that worked if you pedaled from one city to another). Idaho, North Carolina, and Ohio seem to have the most bike license plates out on eBay. I'm not talking about the toy plates Wheaties had in the sixties, these are real license plates. Very interesting.

Someday you will grow old like myself thinking people should follow the basic set of norms you grew up with, and then come across a new hobby that went against all of the rules you were taught to follow. Sharing the road in the 70s and 80s just wasn't the way people thought.

I'm not certain what those new hobbies will be in the future, perhaps, I don't know... trail jousting? Each cyclist has a big stick and pedals toward the other at full force. This could be one of those "because I wanted to" hobbies. Perhaps the good news is that I won't live long enough to find out. :)

Nevertheless, I will do my best to look out for the invisible peddlers just as I use the force with pedestrians wearing dark colors on a rainy night. I can only avoid what is visible. I'm just not going to see that grey "Share the Road" lettering on your duff-colored jacket on a dusty ole gravel road.

Forget about hoping people see you on roadways, wear bright colors. That's how I survived my pedaling years, and even then there were some close calls.

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Chip Down
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by Chip Down » June 27th, 2021, 5:41 pm

BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
...Audi/BMW/Mercedes. Sorry if you are in one of these groups ...
My first car was an Audi. And my second. Then I came to my senses. :D

When I ride on gravel, I listen carefully. I'm vigilant. Although my two little tires make noise, I hope somebody else's four big tires make enough noise to be heard...and I look back often. I pull over if somebody is coming. Know what I've noticed? A lot of people slow to a crawl, even when I'm pulled over. The only logical explanation is they want to minimize dust. Now that's courtesy! I know a lot of people are dicks, but generally I find that motorists are just as kind and generous as I am as a cyclist, and we get along great. :D

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retired jerry
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by retired jerry » June 28th, 2021, 5:36 am

Nice thought Chip. I agree. Most people are actually pretty nice. At least they try to be.

I think we can always count Charley to advocate for bicycles. That's a good thing to me. There ought to be places that bicycles can ride. It is possible for different users to share without conflict.

Once I was camping on the Timberline Trail at Newton Creek. 4 bicycles rode by in the night. Their headlamps were rather eyrie. Totally illegal, but whatever... Bicycles should not be on Wilderness trails.

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retired jerry
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by retired jerry » June 28th, 2021, 5:38 am

You forgot to mention Porches

What's the difference between a porcupine and a Porche owner?

The pricks on the outside

Stupid joke, sorry...

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Charley
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by Charley » June 28th, 2021, 10:09 am

BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
I can always count on Charlie missing the point. Bright colors. Being seen. Safety. Taking some personal accountability.
. . .
Nevertheless, I will do my best to look out for the invisible peddlers just as I use the force with pedestrians wearing dark colors on a rainy night. I can only avoid what is visible.
I effectively responded to this point, when I wrote that "If there were a tree down over the road, or a large pothole, you'd be similarly responsible for not driving into it at full speed. If the lighting conditions make that task impossible at your current speed, the only responsible thing to do is drive slower. The Forest Service roads are full of such obstacles..."

In other words, you seem to be arguing that, unless an object in the road is bright colored, you are absolved of responsibility for avoiding running your car into it. That's irresponsible and absurd. What are the predominant colors of downed trees, washouts, potholes, and fallen rocks? Brown and green.

The greatest absurdity of this is that you're accusing cyclists of a lack of "personal accountability" because you are explicitly arguing that your travel speeds need not account for earthtone-colored objects on a Forest Service road. You are saying you believe you have no responsibility to avoid anything unless it's hunter's orange and car-fearing. If you really do believe this, I'm curious how many times you've crashed on such roads.

(I honestly think you're probably a far better, far more responsible driver than your "get off my lawn" argument would suggest. In fact, I'd bet that you'd never hit a cyclist in the roadway, and that you're making your arguments merely because of your annoyance at having to interact with them).
BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
And yes, just as when hikers starting hitting the tail, it was a sad day for equestrians, and for hikers it was when bikes started hitting the trails. It is a sad day that now they bikes are on the gravel roads now for autos.
I take it on faith that you actually are sad that you saw people riding bicycles on a gravel road. I can't argue with your feelings. On the other hand, it seems to me that if something so inconsequential is so affecting, to the point of arguing about it on the internet, it must be really hard to live like that. Life would be a constant struggle to maintain equilibrium. If that's the case for you BigBear, you have my sympathy, and please, reach out for professional mental health treatment if you need it!
BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
Share the road has become a punchline to a joke. I'd just be happy if people followed the "rules of the road."
Rules such as traveling at a speed that will allow you to stop before running in to objects in the roadway???
BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
Someday you will grow old like myself thinking people should follow the basic set of norms you grew up with, and then come across a new hobby that went against all of the rules you were taught to follow. Sharing the road in the 70s and 80s just wasn't the way people thought.
I don't know, man. Man grandparents loved telling me stories about riding the gravel farm roads of my hometown in East Tennessee. My grandmother specifically loved to walk her bike up the biggest nearby hill and bomb down without hitting the brakes. They didn't even have helmets or day-glo colors back then! Which is not to say that bright colors and helmets are a bad idea.

To claim that people riding bikes on gravel roads is some kind of unprecedented theft from honest, good, citizen automobile drivers is the worst kind of historical revisionism.
BigBear wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 10:06 pm
Forget about hoping people see you on roadways, wear bright colors. That's how I survived my pedaling years, and even then there were some close calls.
I always do, and bright lights really help, also. But, as I pointed out in an earlier post, none of that will save you from a driver who believes that they are not responsible for driving at a safe speed, using their eyeballs to look in front, and avoiding objects in the roadway.

If you ultimately refuse to accept this bare minimum of responsibility while driving, you have no right to drive.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Charley
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Re: Bicycles on gravel road to Grassy Knoll 6-19-21

Post by Charley » June 28th, 2021, 10:37 am

aiwetir wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 7:34 pm
Well said Charley, these are all things I wanted to say but didn't have the energy to put it out there so I went sarcastic :D
I can't help myself. It's a disease. :D
aiwetir wrote:
June 25th, 2021, 7:34 pm
I would add that there should be no sense of loss to having bikes on gravel roads, far less impact that motor vehicles and there's a freaking road there already, the road ruined the treasured place already. If you are getting to your treasured place by car, it's probably far enough away that other cars don't go there yet. If it's that far away, fewer bikes will go there.

As an (ex) wildlife biologist, I do recognize the disturbance this causes to wildlife and it is in addition to the shooting and driving disturbances wildlife already experiences, so it is cumulative, but I'm not sure gravel bikes, road usage, wildlife disturbance, etc are a zero sum game.
It just occurred to me that there's an enormous irony here, regarding the rampant logging of the Forest Service's "good old days," as opposed to the relatively crowded recreational use of relatively legally-well-protected Forest Service lands nowadays.

While BigBear and Waffle Stomper have noted their sadness at losing the quiet roads that these cyclists are apparently ruining, I can't help but think of the fact that earlier generations (I don't know exact ages of Waffle Stomper and Big Bear, but the comments are suggestive) logged so many millions of board feet off of our Forest Service lands that the chance of riding through an old-growth forest is radically diminished for younger people.

In other words, while they might mourn the loss of a road free of the scourge of men and women riding bicycles in spandex tights, earlier generations oversaw the vast deforestation of our nation's greatest forests. Honestly, they might only be thinking about the relative quiet of the 90's and early 2000's, when so many logs had be trucked out already, and local population yet to grow, that the roads might actually have been much quieter.

I realize it's not an either-or, because these losses may be felt cumulatively. Also, Waffle Stomper almost certainly would have argued against at least some of the logging (I'm not sure about Big Bear).

But, even then, where is the sense of proportionality? Of all the threats to our enjoyment of wild places, how does riding a bicycle even rate? We have an economic system that devalues ecology and puts our local wild lands at risk of mining, logging, grazing, pipelining, and peri-urban development. Sure, bicycles and other forms of wilderness "crowding" may be relatively highly-visible to other recreationists, but putting focus anywhere but resource extraction and land-use issues is myopic.

And, in a move that will surprise no one, this is where I'll get up on my soapbox about recreation: when we outdoorsy folks fight with each other over access, big extraction businesses laugh all the way to bank, and take public lands with them. If, in the name of "preserving wilderness", we spend our energy fighting to keep the public from enjoying public lands, we are taking our eye off of the private, moneyed interests that will take our wilderness and eat it. The relative environment impacts are not comparable.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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