Who else got their central cascades permit today?

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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xrp
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by xrp » April 22nd, 2021, 5:59 am

aaburles wrote:
April 22nd, 2021, 5:33 am
Does anyone know what the fine is if you get caught not having a permit?
$0 if you start coughing up a storm when you see a Forest Ranger then yell out that you have COVID-19 and urge social distancing so the Ranger doesn't go on oxygen.

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retired jerry
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by retired jerry » April 22nd, 2021, 7:34 am

not going to repeat this exchange again :)

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xrp
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by xrp » April 22nd, 2021, 10:22 am

retired jerry wrote:
April 22nd, 2021, 7:34 am
not going to repeat this exchange again :)
Of course not. You've long complained about certain areas requiring fees to use, yet when you are presented with un-refutable evidence of not having to pay a fee, you still say you have to pay a fee.

You don't have to pay the NWFP unless you use the amenities, even if amenities are present (per federal judge).
You have to pay the fees if amenities are present, I don't care what the court says! (Jerry).

You have to pay a fee for a reservation to hike or backpack in the Central Cascades (USFS).
I'm not going to pay a fee for a reservation to hike or backpack in the Central Cascades, I'll take it to court! (Jerry)

Boggles the mind.

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retired jerry
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by retired jerry » April 22nd, 2021, 11:33 am

The court cases about the northwest forest pass say that the forest service can't charge for parking unless there are amenities provided. That's the requirement listed in the bill passed by congress. The court cases are a little ambiguous so I can see why some people think the court cases say the forest service can only charge a fee if the person uses the amenities. Maybe some day there'll be a court case that's less ambiguous.

The central cascades permit rests on a provision that says the forest service can charge for a special use. Like for a one time event. But they are charging a fee for all users of the Three Sisters and Jefferson for all times. The law says the Forest Service can not charge for just using the National Forest. They are only charging $6 for administrative costs. Maybe that would survive a court challenge, they're not charging for use, but for the costs of the computer. Sort of like only being able to charge for amenities.

There's another case where the Forest Service was preventing use of a river because they thought there were too many people using it. I forget how the case was resolved, but it depended on the fact that only part of the river was restricted, the busy part, but people could use other parts of the river. It seems like the over-all restrictions on Three Sisters and Jefferson wilderness areas contradicts that case.

Legal cases are difficult to interpret. I don't claim to be "right". You can only have another legal case with a judge making a decision on the specific case. And the forest service changing their policies in response to a legal decision.

Aimless
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by Aimless » April 22nd, 2021, 12:09 pm

Here's my best understanding of the current state of things.

For now the Forest Service is not strictly speaking charging any money for the Central Cascades permits. The permits are nominally 'free'. But the FS requires you to obtain a permit. The FS chose not to issue permits exclusively through walk-ups to their ranger stations, which was an available option. Instead, it issues them exclusively through a private contractor, Recreation.gov, a for-profit entity that charges a minimum base fee for the use of their online service. The federal government entered a binding contract with this company which bars the FS from competing with Recreation.gov by operating their own online service to issue these permits.

The public ends up paying for the online service each time it wants to obtain a permit, but the FS receives not one penny of these payments. It all flows to the private contractor.
Last edited by Aimless on April 22nd, 2021, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected the name of the website

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xrp
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by xrp » April 22nd, 2021, 12:54 pm

retired jerry wrote:
April 22nd, 2021, 11:33 am
The court cases about the northwest forest pass say that the forest service can't charge for parking unless there are amenities provided. That's the requirement listed in the bill passed by congress. The court cases are a little ambiguous so I can see why some people think the court cases say the forest service can only charge a fee if the person uses the amenities. Maybe some day there'll be a court case that's less ambiguous.

Legal cases are difficult to interpret. I don't claim to be "right". You can only have another legal case with a judge making a decision on the specific case. And the forest service changing their policies in response to a legal decision.
So this is where I suspect you are stuck in 2012 or 2013.

I hiked around a good bit of Gifford Pinchot National Forest 2010-2013. In summer 2011 I hit many lightly used trails up (I think) NF-30 and NF-90. NWFP posted required. No amenities present. Summer 2012 rolls around and all of a sudden the same barren trailheads now have picnic tables, outhouses, garbage cans, etc. Why? I'm sure I wasn't the only person that noticed this.

Well, Feb 2012, Adams vs USFS ruled: "The Court found that 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1) unambiguously stated that USFS may not charge recreational park users “solely for parking” or for using the Park for various activities which do not meet the minimum standard of amenities, thereby entitling USFS to collect a standard amenity fee." (https://willamette.edu/law/resources/jo ... -usfs.html)

So for 2012, the USFS scurried about and tossed amenities everywhere there was a NWFP sign because they wanted to ticket people and drive NWFP purchasing/revenue up.

However, this is where the clarification case of Fragosa et al vs USFS comes to play (https://mountainenterprise.com/story/pa ... ral-judge/):

"On April 28 (2014) U.S. District Judge Terry J. Hatter Jr. “found that the USFS cannot charge fees to visitors who park their vehicles and head off down the trail without using any developed facilities, such as picnic tables and bathrooms that may be adjacent to the parking area,” the Western Slope No-Fee Coalition (WSNFC) reported just as we were going to press this week."

Then there's this summary (https://forestpolicypub.com/2014/04/30/ ... -fee-case/):

"This case, Fragosa et al v. US Forest Service, hinged on whether the Forest Service can require an Adventure Pass anywhere amenities are present, even if a visitor does not use them and only parks there while traveling through undeveloped areas.

In his ruling, Judge Hatter said decisively that they can not."


For reference, these two cases are 9th Circuit Court decisions. So despite the cases involving southern Arizona and southern California, the ruling impacts all of the 9th Circuit, which includes Oregon and Washington. The "Adventure Pass" is/was the USFS Southern California equivalent of the Northwest Forest Pass for Oregon and Washington.

This article from 2016 confirms (http://archive.vcstar.com/news/special/ ... 53361.html):
Under a settlement reached between two Ojai hikers, two others and the U.S. Forest Service, visitors will no longer have to pay to park near trailheads in four Southern California national forests if they don't use amenities such as permanent bathrooms and picnic tables.

They will not have to buy so-called Adventure Passes to merely access trailheads at 66 sites with amenities in the Los Padres, Angeles, Cleveland and San Bernardino national forests.
If this doesn't clarify it for you, I would recommend you enrolling in 2nd grade to get a better grasp of the English language. You can attend via Zoom. In any case, you certainly should stop telling people on this site that they have to have NWFP just for parking where amenities are present, because it is not true.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but in plain language, the plaintiffs asked the judge "Do we need to buy a pass to park and hike, even if amenities are present but we don't use them?" and the judge responded, "no."

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retired jerry
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by retired jerry » April 22nd, 2021, 12:58 pm

"If this doesn't clarify it for you, I would recommend you enrolling in 2nd grade to get a better grasp of the English language. You can attend via Zoom."

Okay, I'll work on that project :)

Mutt
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by Mutt » May 2nd, 2021, 2:27 pm

In answer to the OP, I did not and will not make reservations for hiking/backpacking in the central Oregon cascades. The main reason is that I do not hike/backpack in that area between May and mid-September. Some of the best times to be in the central Oregon cascades is in late September through early October. And, since the permits are not required past September 24, it's a non-issue for me.

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retired jerry
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by retired jerry » May 2nd, 2021, 2:31 pm

hmmm... there should be a few good weeks of weather after sept 24

you can just go there without registering?

Mutt
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Re: Who else got their central cascades permit today?

Post by Mutt » May 2nd, 2021, 2:38 pm

Per the Forest Service's own website the permit is only required through Sept 24th. I live in Bend and know for a fact that we can have some very nice weather up through mid October and I have done some backpacking during that time frame.

--edited to add: you still have to self-register at trailheads. You just won't have to get a Central Cascades Permit.

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