Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
User avatar
sgyoung
Posts: 311
Joined: November 3rd, 2013, 7:30 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by sgyoung » January 2nd, 2019, 5:08 pm

Did anyone else notice the CHPDWN edited into the bottom of the warning? That was a nice touch.

But yeah, that warning but have been under the circumstances. Not sure it makes you insensitive, per se...

User avatar
retired jerry
Posts: 12519
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by retired jerry » January 2nd, 2019, 7:58 pm

I saw that in passing but it only barely registered. Now, after a second look, yeah, nice touch

Just for the record, I don't think Chip is an insensitive jerk :)

Hard to tell if where he parked was too close to be a problem. Whatever. After Lurch's comments I can see the problem. The next time I park near a locked gate I'll make sure and leave plenty of room.

User avatar
Chip Down
Posts: 1604
Joined: November 8th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by Chip Down » January 2nd, 2019, 8:01 pm

Interesting pic from Lurch. Everything, to my eye anyway, appears new. Maybe a christening-day portrait.
sgyoung wrote:
January 2nd, 2019, 5:08 pm
Did anyone else notice the CHPDWN edited into the bottom of the warning? That was a nice touch.

But yeah, that warning but have been under the circumstances. Not sure it makes you insensitive, per se...
And I gave myself a vanity plate to match, but you can't quite tell.

Titogoeshiking3 wrote:
January 2nd, 2019, 2:32 pm
Just curious, how did that gold SUV get in there?
There were several cars and light trucks along the road, and people who appeared to be recreating with dogs, which surprised me greatly. They also messed up the pristine road with all their tire tracks and footprints, but that's okay, it was virgin for me in the morning. As for how they got there, they unlocked the gate and drove through, and then relocked it. But you probably realize that. It was a K9 training day. Woof!

Other than that, I'm not going to respond to some posts above that I think are unreasonable. I think the facts are well established, and I asked for feedback. If I think somebody's feedback is unreasonable, I guess I have to accept it.

User avatar
BigBear
Posts: 1584
Joined: October 1st, 2009, 11:54 am

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by BigBear » January 3rd, 2019, 9:29 am

Here's the message I sent Chip Down directly since some users are wondering what I had sent previously (which was deleted sometime during the next 24 hours). I think it was Aimless who asked if a parking violation is a crime - yes it is, no its not a serious crime, but it is one that is "on the books."


First, "Do Not Block the Gate" is "No Parking."

Second, if someone hit your car while turning around, it is probably proof enough you were blocking a roadway. A year or so ago, it was discussed that you cannot park on a roadway, you have to be on the shoulder (all 4 wheels).

I also noted that you had received a ticket for parking at the equestrian trail at Beacon Rock, and a few months ago there was a discussion re. "No Trespassing" being a crime regardless of how many times you did it.

The concern: Ridgefield NWR has limited walking routes in winter months, Horsethief Butte SP stopped allowing access to She Who Watches without ranger accompaniment, and Lassen Peak has warnings about cross-country hikers that will lead to ranger-only hikes...all due to an ongoing disregard for the regulations.

For some reason, oregonhikers finds these comments to be unsuitable for the website. Wonder what their motivation is?

I'm fairly sure you're an okay guy, but I would appreciate it if you do follow the regs and not try to gain support when you don't. I can live with being called "Anal" because I will be the first to admit that I certainly can be. But I'm playing the long-game here and I don't want to see the authorities gating up the access to my trails.

Aimless
Posts: 1409
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:02 pm
Location: Lake Oswego

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by Aimless » January 3rd, 2019, 10:03 am

BigBear wrote:
January 3rd, 2019, 9:29 am
Here's the message I sent Chip Down directly since some users are wondering what I had sent previously (which was deleted sometime during the next 24 hours). I think it was Aimless who asked if a parking violation is a crime - yes it is, no its not a serious crime, but it is one that is "on the books."
First, since you attributed something to me, I should mention that the attribution is incorrect. Someone else must have asked that.

Next, after reading your first sentence I can't figure out whether you think a post you made to this thread was deleted, or if it was a private message you sent directly to another member, but I can assure you that no moderators deleted any messages in this thread. Private messages are private, which means moderators have no access to them at all (unless it's a message to or from them) and can't delete them.

I have no idea what actually happened here, but it was not the result of "censorship" on our part and had nothing to do with suppressing the contents of something you wrote.

Lurch
Posts: 1258
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by Lurch » January 3rd, 2019, 11:32 am

BigBear wrote:
January 3rd, 2019, 9:29 am
[...]if a parking violation is a crime - yes it is, no its not a serious crime, but it is one that is "on the books."
Possibly semantics and/or beating of a dead horse... But to the best of my knowledge that wouldn't be technically accurate... All crimes are violations of the law, but not all violations are crimes. i.e. a violation of the traffic laws, is not necessarily also a violation of the criminal code. ORS 811 handling traffic violations (including parking) is a very different chapter from the criminal code. Granted there's some overlap on some things, but generally speaking a violation isn't a misdemeanor, and you can't be jailed for it. You may be jailed for how you react to receiving the ticket though :lol:

That said, the USFS cited a federal statute, not an ORS, and I'm not familiar with their game, so who knows maybe it is criminal at the federal level?

User avatar
Water
Posts: 1182
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by Water » January 3rd, 2019, 12:26 pm

it was me who mused that you surely didn't think parking too close to a gate was a criminal act.

I hardly think of a non-moving vehicle citation as a criminal act. Whether it is parking in equestrian area or not. In the way everyone I know uses the English language, never have I heard people who got a parking ticket referred to as a criminal, unless there was some greater violation of the law. Who knew all of my friends and everyone in my family was a criminal... this is big news to me

What is your opinion on the topic of civil disobedience, BigBear? For something like NWFP.. I don't adhere. Nor the MSHI permits. A private organization should never harvest public monies for access to public lands they do not pay to maintain. I never fill out the self-issue wilderness permits [aka access restriction threshold markers], just keep the signed portion on my person.
Feel Free to Feel Free

User avatar
BigBear
Posts: 1584
Joined: October 1st, 2009, 11:54 am

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by BigBear » January 3rd, 2019, 1:04 pm

Aimless is correct, it was someone else who asked the question on page 1.

The question on censorship: I posted a reply like this one, and confirmed it was received and displayed the day i did it, but it was gone the next day, so i sent a personal message to Chip, and after reading comments that were interested in what I initially posted, I copied the private message.

The word "criminal" is a debate about semantics but not one of lawfulness. I tried to get a search on "Is a violation of a CFR a crime?" and several Google finds discussed "criminal penalties for violations" of specific CFRs but not a general yes/no for all CFR violations.

The more important discussion is: what are the implications for all trail users if parking regulations are not followed. We all know that USFS put very strict limits on parking at Herman Creek TH after people illegally lined both sides of the roadway on numerous occasions. I suggest reading ORS and WSL rules on where you can/can't park, it's really quite complex - but in general, you must be off the roadway and allow for a specific amount of visual distance to be legal.

Civil disobedience of the NWFP is a misnomer. Federal courts in Adams v USFS and Bark v USFS have already found the NWFP to be "unambiguously prohibited" as expressed in the REA for hiking, backpacking and picnicking. Therefore, you are simply following the federal law and federal court findings and not being disobedient. You can not break a law which is found to be unlawful by the courts.

User avatar
retired jerry
Posts: 12519
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by retired jerry » January 3rd, 2019, 1:50 pm

the more important discussion is - if you park next to the gate it'll make it more difficult for people that need to get through like SAR.

Make sure and park well away from the gate

User avatar
Bosterson
Posts: 1866
Joined: May 18th, 2009, 3:17 pm
Location: Portland

Re: Am I an insensitive jerk, or is the USFS wound a bit tight?

Post by Bosterson » January 3rd, 2019, 3:14 pm

BigBear wrote:
January 3rd, 2019, 1:04 pm
The question on censorship: I posted a reply like this one, and confirmed it was received and displayed the day i did it, but it was gone the next day...
Hey BigBear, is it possible you hit Preview rather than Submit? Chip started this topic on 12/30/18 and the only Moderator action in the moderator log since then is when I moved Guy's Meet n Deet invite to the Events forum last night. No one has deleted or censored any posts in this topic.
Will hike off trail for fun.

Post Reply