ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

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bobcat
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by bobcat » December 22nd, 2018, 8:43 am

bushwhacker wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm
Question: It mentions in the Outreach Strategy that various stakeholders had input into this process. One of those listed stakeholders was TKO. Did anyone representing TKO actually take part in any of this? How come no one seemed to know about this until yesterday? It seems like a big deal impacting a lot of people.
This is news to me. I'm on the TKO Board and in no way did the Board pass motion in response to the parking fee plan because it has not come before the Board. I didn't even know about it until it was posted here. Our main interaction with ODOT was to coordinate with the gatekeepers at the closed trailheads so they could let us in. Maybe that qualifies as "input." I'd also be interested in State Parks and USFS responses to the ODOT plan.

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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Webfoot » December 22nd, 2018, 5:18 pm

Peabody wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 7:34 am
Convert the Historic Highway into a one way street west to east. Turn the unused lane (the one closest to the waterfalls) into parallel parking and a walkway for the entire length between Vista House and Ainsworth.
There has been talk of making the Historic Highway one-way but there is a conflict of interest as to how the second lane is used. The State Trail plan would use it exclusively for cycle and foot traffic I believe. Drivers however would want at least some of it to be used for passing zones so that they are not stuck behind slow moving vehicles the entire way. You propose parallel parking but that is often a slow process, and with a single traffic lane it would hold up the entire column of vehicles every time someone pulled into or out of a tight spot which sounds like a Charlie Foxtrot to me.

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Guy
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Guy » December 22nd, 2018, 6:06 pm

bobcat wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 8:43 am
bushwhacker wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm
Question: It mentions in the Outreach Strategy that various stakeholders had input into this process. One of those listed stakeholders was TKO. Did anyone representing TKO actually take part in any of this? How come no one seemed to know about this until yesterday? It seems like a big deal impacting a lot of people.
This is news to me. I'm on the TKO Board and in no way did the Board pass motion in response to the parking fee plan because it has not come before the Board. I didn't even know about it until it was posted here. Our main interaction with ODOT was to coordinate with the gatekeepers at the closed trailheads so they could let us in. Maybe that qualifies as "input." I'd also be interested in State Parks and USFS responses to the ODOT plan.
Thanks Bobcat, so do you think there was involvement with TKO, could someone at TKO have spoken for TKO without going through the board. If that is the case I'd be very interested in knowing what TKO had to say about this and if TKO has a position on it.
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Peabody
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Peabody » December 23rd, 2018, 7:01 am

Webfoot wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 5:18 pm
Peabody wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 7:34 am
Convert the Historic Highway into a one way street west to east. Turn the unused lane (the one closest to the waterfalls) into parallel parking and a walkway for the entire length between Vista House and Ainsworth.
There has been talk of making the Historic Highway one-way but there is a conflict of interest as to how the second lane is used. The State Trail plan would use it exclusively for cycle and foot traffic I believe. Drivers however would want at least some of it to be used for passing zones so that they are not stuck behind slow moving vehicles the entire way. You propose parallel parking but that is often a slow process, and with a single traffic lane it would hold up the entire column of vehicles every time someone pulled into or out of a tight spot which sounds like a Charlie Foxtrot to me.
There are miles of bike/pedestrian only portions of the highway further east. Bikes are part of traffic, so I would have no issue with no bike lane and mixed use, cars/bikes of the traffic lane. As far as parallel parking slowing down traffic, you could look to many streets in Portland (i.e. Division, Powell, Hawthorn, etc.) to see there's not a huge impact on traffic flow.

One way would be ~7 miles (freeway access to freeway access)
Passing zones - nope, max 20 mph - if your in a hurry you shouldn't be on the historic highway.
In a worse case scenario if you averaged 15 MPH it would take ~ 30 minutes to drive the stretch.

The biggest flaw in this scenario is that ODOT, USFS, et al don't have a big everyday role. not a lot of room for fees, fines, and make work.
"I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day.”
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Guy » December 23rd, 2018, 2:46 pm

Peabody wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 7:01 am
The biggest flaw in this scenario is that ODOT, USFS, et al don't have a big everyday role. not a lot of room for fees, fines, and make work.
Hits the nail squarely on the head!
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Bosterson » December 24th, 2018, 12:46 pm

bobcat wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 8:43 am
bushwhacker wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 4:23 pm
Question: It mentions in the Outreach Strategy that various stakeholders had input into this process. One of those listed stakeholders was TKO. Did anyone representing TKO actually take part in any of this? How come no one seemed to know about this until yesterday? It seems like a big deal impacting a lot of people.
This is news to me. I'm on the TKO Board and in no way did the Board pass motion in response to the parking fee plan because it has not come before the Board. I didn't even know about it until it was posted here. Our main interaction with ODOT was to coordinate with the gatekeepers at the closed trailheads so they could let us in. Maybe that qualifies as "input." I'd also be interested in State Parks and USFS responses to the ODOT plan.
John, are you able to look into this in more depth? Because all these strategies - timed parking, variable rates, reservation systems, "revenue generation" - were proposed by Tom Kloster in a 2016 blog post. I think many of us here would like to know what role TKO played in these ODOT proposals.

Souce: https://wyeastblog.org/2016/04/30/the-h ... rt-2-of-2/
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by bobcat » December 24th, 2018, 2:40 pm

Bosterson wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 12:46 pm
John, are you able to look into this in more depth? Because all these strategies - timed parking, variable rates, reservation systems, "revenue generation" - were proposed by Tom Kloster in a 2016 blog post. I think many of us here would like to know what role TKO played in these ODOT proposals.
Well, again, that might be Tom's opinion, but there is no official TKO pronouncement, as yet, on the parking fees, and there is nothing in the archive to suggest such a motion was passed. It has never been mentioned when I've been at a meeting. There is a TKO group working on slate of suggestions for mitigating traffic on trails in the Gorge. I haven't seen the details, but I understood these to include new trail loops, shuttle service for one way hikers, etc. The TKO Board meets only once every two months, so these things are slow to develop.

That said, I'm aware that the agencies felt they had to do something about parking (as opposed to trail use). I assumed it would be more enforcement, but I was probably too naive to think that enforcement would come without some new way to pay for it. Unfortunately, it seems to be an almost inevitable step given higher population density and greatly increased visitation.

Having mulled this for a couple of days, though, I'm sort of slumping hopelessly on the side of the lesser of evils. To me, parking fees which can be paid on site are more palatable than permits/reservations which (a) are never 100% used, so leave empty spaces and (2) allow for no spontaneity. If they could come up with reasonable fees (hourly + maybe $5 for full day use, State Parks Pass and NW Forest Pass also accepted at all trailheads), then I might adjust with a modicum of acceptance. Throw in free Park 'n Rides at both ends with a shuttle as well.

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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by justpeachy » December 24th, 2018, 2:57 pm

John is correct, TKO has not yet taken a position on this and did not submit comments to ODOT.
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Water » December 24th, 2018, 9:42 pm

So someone from TKO board might want to contact ODOT or metro or whomever wrote this proposal. Seems like fraudulent misrepresentation.
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Re: ODOT proposes fees for Gorge waterfall corridor

Post by Peabody » December 25th, 2018, 10:59 am

bobcat wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 2:40 pm
Well, again, that might be Tom's opinion, but there is no official TKO pronouncement, as yet, on the parking fees, and there is nothing in the archive to suggest such a motion was passed. It has never been mentioned when I've been at a meeting. There is a TKO group working on slate of suggestions for mitigating traffic on trails in the Gorge. I haven't seen the details, but I understood these to include new trail loops, shuttle service for one way hikers, etc. The TKO Board meets only once every two months, so these things are slow to develop.

That said, I'm aware that the agencies felt they had to do something about parking (as opposed to trail use). I assumed it would be more enforcement, but I was probably too naive to think that enforcement would come without some new way to pay for it. Unfortunately, it seems to be an almost inevitable step given higher population density and greatly increased visitation.

Having mulled this for a couple of days, though, I'm sort of slumping hopelessly on the side of the lesser of evils. To me, parking fees which can be paid on site are more palatable than permits/reservations which (a) are never 100% used, so leave empty spaces and (2) allow for no spontaneity. If they could come up with reasonable fees (hourly + maybe $5 for full day use, State Parks Pass and NW Forest Pass also accepted at all trailheads), then I might adjust with a modicum of acceptance. Throw in free Park 'n Rides at both ends with a shuttle as well.
How is trail traffic being measured? What is the threshold for "doing something"? The way I see , the current level of usage is not a problem, but shuttles, more trails, etc. are always welcome.

I would strongly oppose any fee/fine solution unless it was first accompanied by a plan to drastically increase the amount of parking. (new lot at Dog Mountain, Herman Creek, Eagle Creek, expand Multnomah falls/I-84 lot, etc.)

Remember, ODOT is rebuilding the eastern part of the Historic Highway, which I'm assuming is meant to increase the number of visitors......and......and......and.....they included almost no new parking. A cynical person :roll: might assume that ODOT is mostly interested is limiting the number of parking spaces in order to increase the revenue they take in.
"I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day.”
― E.B. White

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