CURRENT recommendations for winter mountaineering course?

[Bosterson]

South Sister is unlikely to become a "death trap" due to the slope angle. Keeping in mind that the Cascade Lakes Highway is usually closed until around July (you would have to ski in before that), late season snow is intermittent and well consolidated. Ditto for Sacajawea - if you were to try to go in, say, January, it would be difficult to get near the peak, let alone climb it, meaning maybe you're thinking about going in late spring when there's still snow up top. So given that, it sounds like what you want to be able to do is to go to higher places under early or mid season snow conditions. In that case, I would recommend just soliciting partners - either here or on NWHikers (though that's mainly Seattle folk) or maybe Cascade Climbers - and get someone a bit more experienced join you. You can always pick up an axe and crampons now and then go muck around in the snow this winter [edit: this means messing about on small hills next to parking lots, like you would do just above Timberline Lodge] to get a feel for them. (Eg, to avoid kicking yourself in the leg or catching a crampon point on the excess fabric of your pants.) Studying a copy of Freedom of the Hills is also a good idea.

To the more general point, "roping up" is not generally recommended on open snow slopes, unless you're setting some kind of snow anchor (otherwise it's a death pact in a fall situation), but the places you referenced seem too low-angle for you to even need to worry about this.

[Water]

Would echo Bosterson's suggestions about not needing to rope up. And you could certainly get an ice ax and crampons and mess around, but I will say there's a lot of particular knowledge about length of ice axe, weight of it (ultra light aluminum things vs heavier steel), and crampons (a lot of variance in style, attachment types, and boot compatibility). I have no doubt a smart person could figure those things out on their own but having someone who knows about it is hard to put a price tag on.

The 5 day course really sounds completely over-kill for your interests. Find someone to do the Hood thing with.

I would again agree with what you're asking, about accessing peaks in the winter and stuff. Being competent in the snow beyond snowshoeing is a good skill, and yes allows you to do more in the winter. Most of what you mentioned, no don't become death traps inherently due to the snow, but the avalanche risk is a serious thing to consider. That said, you can follow a lot of straight-forward terrain evaluation to mitigate avalanche risks, esp if you are not backcountry skiing. For my time as a climber before I got into skiing I can tell you many many many climbers do not have a formal avalanche class or carry beacons, probes, etc or do snow pit tests. That doesn't mean what they're doing is safer than a skier but it's a reality I've observed.

Yes a lot of the bigger things like south sister and sacajawea are harder to access in the dead of winter, but for instance going up maiden peak if it is icy.. fuji, lakeview, diamond peak in march (pioneer gulch way).. shasta...it's not just spring snow, there's some good access in southern cascades.

the biggest 'death' trap going up those in the winter is the choices you make, not the actual mountains with snow, so to speak. glissading with crampons on (NO), traveling on a really icy slope with bad runout that maybe is too firm to arrest on (probably don't go on that slope, even if crampons feel secure), making unwise avalanche decisions (fortunately our maritime snowpack is incredibly forgiving, by and large, compared to a continental snowpack), going alone (having done plenty of solo stuff, though rarely in winter, I don't judge, but it's a legit risk), and racing a weather 'window' are more death-trap activities. The gumption to get out and using slightly more specialized equipment just I suppose puts you into a higher likelihood of encountering those situations.

if this was 7 or 8 years ago and you lived closer, I'd be down to go after it on maiden peak (it's a walk up, unless it is bad icy) or something around the pass. However I am far away, pained to put on mountaineering boots instead of backcountry skis, and with a little one, dog, and house, don't have the liberty of time as much as I once did.

contact timberline mountain guides, I think you can expand your activity into the winter pretty easily, your objectives are reasonable and not 'death trap' like (though wallowas has more continental snowpack, avalanche risk is much higher there, all things equal, fyi).

[Bosterson]

And you could certainly get an ice ax and crampons and mess around, but I will say there's a lot of particular knowledge about length of ice axe, weight of it (ultra light aluminum things vs heavier steel), and crampons (a lot of variance in style, attachment types, and boot compatibility). I have no doubt a smart person could figure those things out on their own but having someone who knows about it is hard to put a price tag on.

I'm going to disagree to the extent that your gear needs now are probably not the same as what your gear needs would be some years in the future if you were to hypothetically start doing more serious alpine excursions, so I would say read up online and/or talk to some gear shops or local mountaineering club experts for advice, and then just get the appropriate inexpensive intro gear. Even really junky new cheap brand axes and crampons still work a lot better than the ones 50 years ago. There is zero reason to buy aluminum crampons for what you want to do, unless you're an ultralight fanatic (which requires proficiency and experience in winter conditions that it doesn't sound like you have), and the crampon attachment style will depend on the boots you most likely already own. (You do not need to go buy mountaineering boots to walk up South Sister in snow.) An all purpose mountaineering ice axe from Petzl or Black Diamond that's long enough for the spike to reach around your ankles if you hold it down at your side while standing should be more than enough for what you want to do, and if you're lucky you might be able to find one used. No reason to sink lots of money into this or obsess over the minutia of gear. If it turns out beginner/general purpose equipment doesn't meet your needs in the future, you can always sell it and buy something else.

I think if you can find a more experienced person to mentor you on general concepts, that should be fine without having to take a class. If you take a class, you'll probably still want to go out with a mentor anyway until you have more experience.

[Charley]

I think you've gotten some really good advice, and I don't need to add anything to it. But I would say this:

You're on the right track! I've really enjoyed spring climbs of relatively modest mountains. When the avalanche danger is less (as long as you're off steeper solar slopes before too late), the snow climbs are magic. Hard work, but not technically too challenging. There aren't many other climbers out (save Mt St Helens), and you and your climbing partner might have the mountains to yourselves. Great fun, and mountaineering at its finest, I think- small group, great isolation, a real feeling of wildness and freedom.

So, whatever you end up paying, I think you'll be glad.

Diamond Peak, May 2013:

[Water]

And you could certainly get an ice ax and crampons and mess around, but I will say there's a lot of particular knowledge about length of ice axe, weight of it (ultra light aluminum things vs heavier steel), and crampons (a lot of variance in style, attachment types, and boot compatibility). I have no doubt a smart person could figure those things out on their own but having someone who knows about it is hard to put a price tag on.

I'm going to disagree to the extent that your gear needs now are probably not the same as what your gear needs would be some years in the future if you were to hypothetically start doing more serious alpine excursions, so I would say read up online and/or talk to some gear shops or local mountaineering club experts for advice, and then just get the appropriate inexpensive intro gear.

disagree with what? i didnt say anything with gear needs now vs gear needs in the future. i was suggesting one could figure out what equipment to buy on their own, but having tutelage and input from an expert/experienced person to go into the particulars (like you touched on) and the proper usage is hard to put a price tag on. you disagree a smart person could figure it out?

[SWriverstone]

Thanks again for the continued good feedback. (I've been away at a conference for a week—hence my delayed reply!)

Truth is, I enjoy doing hikes and easier climbs alone—and yes, I do recognize there is inherently greater risk to going alone, but I also find the rewards are greater too (and I'm naturally conservative and obsess over every decision to minimize risk). But I'm certainly not antisocial—always happy to go with 1 or 2 other people as well.

I have a set of old-school hardened steel crampons a friend gave me (with leather straps); I also have some Kahtoola micro-spikes. I'll have to look around for an ice axe.

I also don't currently own a decent pair of "real" boots (e.g. leather or plastic with relatively stiff soles). A few years back I joined the "trail running shoe" revolution and never looked back, LOL. I'm not talking about snow, of course. So I might need to find something a bit beefier than my high-top, E-vent Altras.

That said, I know many thru-hikers on the PCT the past few years who hiked hundreds of miles through the Sierras in snow (sometimes on pretty steep slopes) in trail running shoes with microspikes. Some had ice axes, some didn't. Which doesn't make that a good idea, but lots of people do it. (I've also seen people sprinting up South Sister in early summer—when there's still plenty of snow on top—in trail running shoes.)

Does anyone climb moderate peaks (like the great photo of Diamond Peak above) in snowshoes? Or are snowshoes strictly a "shuffle-through-the-forest" type of gear?

I hadn't really thought about not being able to get to peaks like South Sister in January. So yes, there's that, LOL. I enjoy skiing backcountry (on backcountry touring gear—not AT gear) and can do that for miles...so for shorter approaches (assuming you can get to within a few miles by vehicle) thats an option.

Scott

[Bosterson]

I have a set of old-school hardened steel crampons a friend gave me (with leather straps); I also have some Kahtoola micro-spikes. I'll have to look around for an ice axe.

Gear needs depend on you and what you're doing. Yes, people can cross Sierras snowfields in trail runners; that doesn't mean trail runners are the appropriate footwear for going up a snowy South Sister. Generally, the margin for using lighter/minimal gear is proportional to your experience and abilities.

When you go get boots (you should get boots for snow, and "climbing" will be easier with stiffer boots), do yourself a favor and get a new pair of crampons - those "old-school" leather strap ones sound fit for a museum. Don't buy crampons until after you buy boots, as you want to fit the crampon attachment to the boot type. (I initially had strap on crampons, but I have boots with a rear welt; switching to "semi-auto" crampons made a lot of difference in fit and security.) A basic pair of modern strap on crampons will be light years better than the relics it sounds like you have. You can also always go research crampons and then try to find a used pair or a good sale online.

Don't spend a lot of time thinking about ice axes - just be sure to get a straight shaft mountaineering axe that's the right length for your height. Again, look for used/sales. You might want to test out the pick's hand grip in a store - the Black Diamond Raven will feel better with the pick backwards, while the Grivel will feel better with the pick forwards (and most of your hand on the adze). Depends on your preference.

Keep in mind that Microspikes are for hiking, not climbing. They are useless for soft snow, and their little teeth have minimal bite in hard snow if the angle is steep. They are again a tool that has a time and a place (mostly on icy trails), but they are not a substitute for crampons in situations where crampons are warranted.

Snowshoes are for powder (in forests and also out in the open) where you don't want to sink up to your knees. If you find yourself in powder like that in steep mountain terrain (Diamond Peak and S. Sister probably don't qualify), you're likely in an avalanche zone and it'd be best to turn around.

[SWriverstone]

Ha—thanks Bosterson! Yeah, I was actually thinking the old crampons I inherited are museum pieces, LOL.

I have a feeling it's going to be a gradual process of experimentation and evolution. For example, I would not want to be stuck in a clunky pair of stiff boots if I'm hiking through snow on flat or gently-sloping terrain for several miles. But yes, if I started up a steeper slope they might come in handy. (So what do you do? Just haul multiple sets of footwear with you?)

I guess I'm really looking for the ultimate "go anywhere in winter" gear—which admittedly may not exist. For example, something good for hiking 4-5 miles along the gently-rolling PCT in snow (possibly deep snow), then being able to head up something like Maiden Peak with confidence.

Or assuming I could get to the Devils Lake trailhead in January (maybe on skis?) something appropriate for the first 3-4 miles up South Sister (mellower terrain), then something that would still work for the last stretch to the summit.

My mellow-terrain winter hiking shoes of choice, for example, are mid-height Altra Lone Peak 4's with E-Vent linings. Warm, light, and dry—and I can go for miles in them. (But they might be worthless for heading up a mountain...unless maybe paired with some Kahtoola KTS hiking spikes?)

Scott

[retired jerry]

I did the Mazama basic course - snow and rock - in maybe 1972? - it was a good basic course - lots of people that weren't real athletic or whatever so it was pretty basic - it was over several days - good opportunity to socialize with people

it seems like there must be a course that in one day you could learn how to use ice axe and take falls, something about crevases, hypothermia,...

[Water]

Snowshoes are for powder (in forests and also out in the open) where you don't want to sink up to your knees. If you find yourself in powder like that in steep mountain terrain (Diamond Peak and S. Sister probably don't qualify), you're likely in an avalanche zone and it'd be best to turn around.

There's a lot more to it than that. There's been more than enough times going up volcanoes that if you didn't have AT ski setup so you can skin or snowshoes, you'd be post-holding through fresh snow and terribly inefficient. Doesn't have any bearing about it being an avalanche slope. Fresh powder can be soft and unconsolidated for a while without inherently having avalanche risk be at hand.

The way our maritime snowpack operates, we often will have warm temperatures as moisture comes off the pacific, this leads to big wet snowflakes that fall, unless there was a prior freezing rain/rain event on the existing snowpack, semi-consolidated snow bonds very well with big wet flakes. As a storm cycle goes it normally starts warm and wet and gradually gets colder, often ending with clear cold conditions, which causes smaller more faceted snow crystals. This is a 'rightside up' snowpack where the bottom-most new layer is nicely adhered to the existing stable snow pack, with the lightest fluffiest snow right at the top. Upside-down snowpack has small faceted icy flakes on a surface, with heavy wet flakes above (if a storm cycle starts cold [below 20] and ends warm [above 32])--after that cycle (less common) the risk can be higher and remain for a while. Aside from that, when right-side up, winds can transport large amounts of that light fluffy top-snow to lee slopes and make them prone to avalanche. That said I've had a lot of great times in safe, fluffy, new snow that i've dug avalanche pits and tested for stability--they're right side up and show great stability.

Here's a New Year's weekend trip on Maiden Peak. Lots of sun, powder, beauty, and safe skiing! Notice west-side of trees have the snow on them in the forest...typical storm cycle