New Northwest Forest Passes

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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retired jerry
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by retired jerry » August 25th, 2018, 12:59 pm

The only one heavily enforced is the Discovery Pass, for example at Beacon Rock

I used to use my NWFP for a couple years. I figured they probably wouldn't notice. I felt/feel a bit guilty about that.

If you go to the Third Beach trailhead in the Olympics you do a self issued permit, there's an envelope to put the money in mail after the trip. Like does anyone really do that???? I did once just for entertainment but usually ignore it. Again, I feel a bit guilty.

I often exceed the speed limit while driving to the trailhead. Within 5 MPH is safe I believe.

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aiwetir
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by aiwetir » August 25th, 2018, 10:25 pm

I used to put a check in a Ziploc bag under my wiper. If it was gone then the were there to take it. If it wasn't then I kept the money.
- Michael

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Water
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by Water » August 25th, 2018, 11:40 pm

I think it was Tom/Roy...who had first hand knowledge from the accounting/budget person(s) when NWFP (demo fee program) first came online, at least zigzag office of Mt. Hood National Forest zero'd out the budget for trail maintenance and pointed to the demo fee program. And from the start it was 'never enough'.

So among a survey of limited options, people like the privy at the TH. Really, that's what we've come to.. drive 1, 2, 3 or however many hours. and people, above a trash free trail, a blowdown free trail, a well maintained trail, a th that has no fear of your vehicle broken into, people want most is to whiz or crap? sorry, i don't buy it. If that's the truth at the end of the day then I guess i am fundamentally different than many of the people i thought i shared a love of the outdoors with.


Ok, so the short and sweet of it Jerry, you read the ruling, you see HIRA thrown out. But that is all. Even with the FLREA text that says paying just to park is prohibited, before all else.. you disagree with that. It's interesting. If the mainstream understanding presented from WTA and TKO and REI etc was that you didn't need a pass just to park and hike, would you advocate everyone needs a pass no matter what? Just because the FS has a longstanding program that they got uptake on from the populace doesn't mean it's valid by any means. Why do we have this here in an area that provides many times more federal tax revenue from the populace than the populace around thousands of locations across idaho, montana, utah, new mexico, and wyoming? That's rhetorical.
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retired jerry
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by retired jerry » August 26th, 2018, 6:27 am

we need a lawsuit where someone parks in a designated area next to all the amenities, is fined, and contests it in court. Then it would be unambiguous.

What's funny to me, is how much emotion this creates in people. For a $35 a year fee that they don't enforce so you really don't have to pay.

What bugs me is that in order to get elected, politicians need huge "contributions". That has to be an influence on what they do. I think it's obvious when you look at bills that are passed and not passed. Donors can give unlimited amounts, anonymously, tax free, with few exceptions. The NWFP is just something to gripe about and thus derive some small amount of entertainment from.

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retired jerry
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by retired jerry » August 26th, 2018, 7:31 am

Decades of this corruption of the campaign finance process has resulted in a system where you run negative attack ads to win. Encourage partisanship on both sides. Split people apart rather than find consensus. I fear the country is going to tear itself apart.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

Abraham Lincoln

NWFP? Such a minor annoyance it doesn't really matter. Arguing about it is part of this partisanship that may destroy us.

In my opinion :)

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Water
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by Water » August 26th, 2018, 2:54 pm

russia isn't behind this NWFP are they?

sorry for thread drift.

It's almost entirely the principle of it. For the most basic of outdoor experience, drive somewhere and hike. It doesn't need to be developed or monetized and more than the trail maintained and somewhere to park. I guess that's my opinion.

But sure, it's only $35. The MSH pass is only $22 too. Mt. Adams only $15. And it's only $7 or something for Pamelia Lake/Obsidian. And only $20 for an Oregon snopark pass. And only $30 for a year long state park pass. And only $50 or something for a Washington state snopark pass. And only $30 for a discovery pass. And only $40 for a Oregon fishing license even though I only do catch and release of dinky little micro trout.

When my kid is my age I would not be shocked to find all the prices doubled or quadrupled and twice as many permits. That's not the outdoors I know that I want him to experience, so I have my views today about all the permit hoopla/illegality.
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retired jerry
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by retired jerry » August 26th, 2018, 3:12 pm

I agree, they shouldn't have all these permits

It costs a lot to sell the permit and enforce it

The NWFP is particularly bad because the law congress passed says they have to have those amenities so there's little left for trail maintenance

Russia isn't behind the NWFP, it's N Korea, or maybe Iran :)

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Guy
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by Guy » August 26th, 2018, 4:06 pm

retired jerry wrote:
August 26th, 2018, 6:27 am
we need a lawsuit where someone parks in a designated area next to all the amenities, is fined, and contests it in court. Then it would be unambiguous.
I remember reading in the Oregonian that eveyone in the Mt Hood National Forest who has requested a court hearing has had the charges against them dropped. Almost like USFS doesn't want to risk being ruled against.
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Don Nelsen
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by Don Nelsen » August 26th, 2018, 5:49 pm

Like Water says, it's the principal of the thing. Like most fees, passes, etc. they start at one level and then rise out of all proportion to inflation or anything else. Also, they never go away. Remember that $2.00 or $3.00 snow park pass back in the late 70's? What is it now, $25 or $30? In Washington, I think it's twice that. Did your wages go up by a factor of 8 or 10 since that pass was initiated!

I don't like being nickle and dimed to death by all the myriad passes, permits fees etc. though to be the devil's advocate, these fees are minor compared with the true costs of hiking: Transportation to the TH and gear. Transportation is the big one for most. Even if you manage to carpool you will likely spend more for one hike than the cost of any pass.

To put it into perspective, even though the two cars I use for driving to a TH are old and completely ammortized (No matter how much more I drive them, they won't lose any more value.) The true cost for my sedan is $.26/mile and the SUV is $.40/mile. For over 40 years I used my own car for business rather than use one of the company provided ones and had to keep meticulous records - and I still do. So, a 200 mile RT to the Dark Divide costs either $52.00 or $80.00 and there's just no way getting around that. Even a trip to the gorge, averaging about 80 to 100 miles RT comes in at something like $21 min. to $40 at most.

Then there's gear: I have to buy a couple of pairs of hiking boots a year and the ones that work best for me are $130. I haven't really done a detailed analysis of all the other things I use but I'd guess it's at least a couple hundred more/year at the least.

Enough, time to plan a hike for the coming week. I think diamond lake area and then up to Crater Lake. TR later.

dn
"Everything works in the planning stage".

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retired jerry
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Re: New Northwest Forest Passes

Post by retired jerry » August 27th, 2018, 5:13 am

"Almost like USFS doesn't want to risk being ruled against."

Yeah, that makes sense

and it costs money to pursue lawsuits, with a small payback, better to just ignore it

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