The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
chrisca
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by chrisca » November 16th, 2016, 1:31 pm

Charley wrote:After the GOP takeover of virtually all levels of government in our nation, I fear that the greatest threat to many of our wild places is not too many visitors, but too few visitors.
That's the conundrum. I think it's OK to share photos for the purpose of spurring conservation, but how to draw the line between sharing for preservation's sake and sharing that over-promotes to the point of destruction of the conserved land? I can delete photos on my website, but if others copy them, I've lost control. We can't delete content that's gotten out of our hands, and the web has no decent rights controls anyway. It has forced me to think twice about how I publish anything.

Nice Malheur photo, BTW. I was there a year before the Bundy mess, plan to go back soon.

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Koda
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Koda » November 16th, 2016, 1:51 pm

chrisca wrote:I think it's OK to share photos for the purpose of spurring conservation, but how to draw the line between sharing for preservation's sake and sharing that over-promotes to the point of destruction of the conserved land?
IMO, I think there is a difference between bigger agendas like the transfer of federal lands, than the topic of overcrowding. If we (hypothetically) successfully protect the Federal lands from transfer, we would still have an over-crowding problem if they were close enough to town or worthy enough of an extended hiking destination.

The vast majority of social media users and forums like this one, are just here to extend their recreation virtually and get free information on where to go. Its become obvious the impact.
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chrisca
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by chrisca » November 16th, 2016, 7:32 pm

Just today, Subaru started running this Instagram ad:
CxbwxaSUQAA6egS.jpg
While the location wasn't identified, we know where it is. Ironically it would be very hard today to only have one person in the photo. Another idea this raised is that the Forest Service and other agencies should deny special use permits for any site where overuse is an issue to prevent video or still capture for commercial purposes. They likely do that sometimes now, but it's not stated policy.

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Charley
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Charley » November 17th, 2016, 4:02 pm

chrisca wrote:Just today, Subaru started running this Instagram ad:
CxbwxaSUQAA6egS.jpg
While the location wasn't identified, we know where it is. Ironically it would be very hard today to only have one person in the photo. Another idea this raised is that the Forest Service and other agencies should deny special use permits for any site where overuse is an issue to prevent video or still capture for commercial purposes. They likely do that sometimes now, but it's not stated policy.
I think (think) this would not have required a permit. I've read, in several of Galen Rowell's, works, about his troubles getting permits for "editorial" photography work. It seems like land managers have made a distinction between a "photo shoot" with lights, tripods, models, support staff, a generator, a changing tent, etc., and a photographer with camera and tripod (and maybe even a canine friend along to model). There also may be a distinction between whether the intent of the photograph is to create images for an apparel catalog (North Face), or to create images for a media outlet (National Geographic).

A further issue here is the kind of photographer and kind of trip involved. Even though I'm an amateur, I've personally gotten calls about using my photos for publications, and have had photos used in publications, advertisements, on cd liners, etc. In my case, all of those photos were either donated or used without my permission (no money changed hands), and all solicitations were because someone saw my photos on the web. Similarly, it's likely that the photograph in question was simply lifted from amateur's webpage or blog. (I would not be surprised to learn either that Subaru paid the photographer or asked for the photo for free and was granted permission. Sometimes, when I've been contacted, I inquired about the licensing fee, and never heard back; no business wants to pay for something that so many amateurs will give away for free.) So, I think that the corporate world is adding steam to your trend. That said, I'm not sure there's much we could do about it.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Charley
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Charley » November 17th, 2016, 4:12 pm

chrisca wrote:
Charley wrote:After the GOP takeover of virtually all levels of government in our nation, I fear that the greatest threat to many of our wild places is not too many visitors, but too few visitors.
That's the conundrum. I think it's OK to share photos for the purpose of spurring conservation, but how to draw the line between sharing for preservation's sake and sharing that over-promotes to the point of destruction of the conserved land? I can delete photos on my website, but if others copy them, I've lost control. We can't delete content that's gotten out of our hands, and the web has no decent rights controls anyway. It has forced me to think twice about how I publish anything.

Nice Malheur photo, BTW. I was there a year before the Bundy mess, plan to go back soon.
So, maybe we could all get behind a big push in the next few years to visit and publicize out of the way places that might be at risk for transfer? For one, it sounds like the BLM lands in Nevada and Utah are at greatest risk. I'm sure that there are gems of beauty to be found out there.

I think I can agree that posting photos of Oneonta Gorge doesn't do that Gorge any good. The difference we may have (if I can recall your original post accurately), is that, if someplace is far out and off the radar, I think we should be publicizing it. Perhaps we can thin out the crowds at some destinations, while promoting advocacy that best protects the threatened land.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Chip Down
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Chip Down » November 17th, 2016, 8:08 pm

I can't possibly respond to all the points raised in this discussion, but a few random thoughts:

I've never posted anything hiking related online, except here and (years ago) on WTA. I hate social media. Although I will acknowledge that some of my pics sent to family and friends end up being reposted on instagram. But yeah, eff facebook and twitter and whatever other rubbish is cool now.

I tend to go to obscure places where nobody wants to follow. I've had TRs with no responses. It's common for me to go on a hike and not see another human. Even when I finally got around to munra point, it was just a part of my day's adventures. Heck, I could instagram the crap out of all my hikes, and nobody would follow in my footsteps. The NW is packed with thousands of obscure adventures waiting to be discovered. If people want to congregate at oneonta or ramona, that's fine with me.

I had some fun last year with a set of hikes where I posted all the details, but changed the names to protect the innocent. I used witty variations that tipped off those in the know, but rendered my TRs hidden from googlebots.

Oh, almost forgot to mention, I'm really impressed and humbled by the caliber of the discourse in this thread. There are some unusually intelligent reasonable people in this community.

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VanMarmot
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by VanMarmot » November 18th, 2016, 9:08 am

Chip Down wrote:Heck, I could instagram the crap out of all my hikes, and nobody would follow in my footsteps. The NW is packed with thousands of obscure adventures waiting to be discovered. If people want to congregate at oneonta or ramona, that's fine with me.
I've put in about 800 trail miles this year in four states and - with the exception of the Eagle Cap Wilderness & parts of the PCT - have seen no more than 6 folks on any hike, if I see any at all. So, YES, there are miles and miles of established - but underloved - trails waiting to take you to obscure but cool places otherwise not endorsed by social media. So, with a little imagination and effort, you don't have to lemming-up at oneonta or ramona or wherever...

Image

Chip Down wrote:...I'm really impressed and humbled by the caliber of the discourse in this thread. There are some unusually intelligent reasonable people in this community.
YES! And it's refreshing to see a respectful back and forth even when folks don't agree - how rare is that these days?

Limey
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Limey » November 18th, 2016, 9:28 am

I am like a few others here who, except for this site, are not on social media. I don't even have a cell phone. I don't think anything can be done about the popular trails, the damage is done there. As for the not so well known places you'd have to get all the news media to stop doing special reports about them. Good luck with that. I've posted reports here about some of my hikes on popular trails but probably 97% of my hikes are cross country bushwhacks. I wouldn't even know how to write a tr about them. It would read something like, go down fr-- till you see an old road, take that until you see a particular rock, find a place to park and head in a -- direction. When you come to such and such turn left and go until you see a....
You get the picture. Even with this type of exploration it is impossible to find a place "Where no man has gone before". We have been in the middle of nowhere, far from any road or trail and found water bottles, candy wrappers etc. We never run into other people on this type of hike, just the evidence they leave behind. I believe the only people who would pledge to leave no virtual trace are the ones who already follow the principal of leave no (physical) trace, the mindless masses will continue to do what they're doing now.
More trails would be nice but the budget isn't there as evidenced by all the non maintained trails. I guess I just don't see a viable solution to the problem.

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mattisnotfrench
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by mattisnotfrench » November 18th, 2016, 9:45 am

Limey wrote: I guess I just don't see a viable solution to the problem.
Because there isn't. Population density is a thing. Our most popular trails are likely to become a similar experience to the ones I've had in the Bay Area. It's sad, but most sad to those of us who remember them before they were crowded like that. Unless people start moving away rather than moving here, and unless the internet just ceases to exist, it is the price we all have to pay for living here and going outdoors. And I know it sucks, but it's here to stay. The biggest change, in my view, is seeing how popular hiking has become overall. It's not just us crazies out there anymore - a lot of people, young people in particular, are now very much into hiking and that's a lot of who you are seeing on the trail. I remember being at the glacial lake on Broken Top this past summer and seeing wave after wave of youngish people coming up, snapping selfies, and then turning around. It was surreal. But that's just the way it is. So that has a lot to do with it. Add to that tourists; this didn't used to be much of a tourist destination, and it is now. That's clearly changed in the 20 or so years I've lived in Oregon.

That being said, I don't regret writing Off the Beaten Trail. I've since hiked most of those trails again, and only a few have become more popular. The ones that did are ones that were covered on social media and in newspaper articles, like Salmonberry River and Bald Butte. I've gone back to some and found them even more lonesome than I did the first time. I'm surprised over and over again that I don't see people at, say, Bear Point. The point is this: the closer to Portland or other major cities, and the easier both the hike and road access is, the more likely it is to get overcrowded. The glacial lake on Broken Top wouldn't be that crowded were it not for all the people willing to drive that awful road to get near it. And it's close to Bend. Mirror Lake is iconic because it's close and easy to find, not just for its view. All the overcrowded Gorge trails are west of Cascade Locks (save for a few random ones like Coyote Wall) because they are close, and not too difficult. There are other trails I've hiked in the Gorge, maintained trails with great views and such, where I see very few people even on sunny days in the spring - because they require a longer drive. And because not every trail can be overcrowded and full of tourists.

I think this pledge is a noble idea, but it's self-selecting. Most of the people who adhere to it already believe in it; you aren't likely to change the minds of too many people. I hope you do.
Author of Extraordinary Oregon!, PDX Hiking 365, 101 Hikes in the Majestic Mount Jefferson Region, and Off the Beaten Trail. Website: www.offthebeatentrailpdx.com

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derwoodynck
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by derwoodynck » November 18th, 2016, 6:58 pm

Lots of good points have been raised here. As someone who does share our hikes I can appreciate the thought process of those who choose not to. I've struggled with what and how much to share at times and have been purposely vague in some cases.

I think for those of us that do share it's important to try and incorporate information on how to hike responsibly. Several years ago when we started hiking we hadn't heard of the LNT principles and not everything comes as common sense to everyone. I think that a lot of times people (especially newbies) just don't know better and the Instagram crowd (and marketing people) are not going to pass that information along.

We share our hikes in part for our family, friends, and others who aren't able to do the hikes themselves and so would never get to see the amazing sights we're lucky enough to have here in the PNW. For that reason I think it's worth continuing to post TRs, but we will continue to try and do so responsibly while promoting LNT for those who might follow in our footsteps.

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