What in the hay now?

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
Lurch
Posts: 1260
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Lurch » March 23rd, 2016, 11:46 am

Bosterson wrote:Frankly, and no offense to Lurch because I know it's his job to care about this kind of thing, for the sake of argument I don't especially care if every single "novice" person who wanders up the ROA trail were to accidentally walk off the cliff up there. I agree with you that it's not necessarily society's job to protect people from themselves, and that inexperienced people are generally not actually as stupid (in terms of potentially harming themselves) as one might expect. Even though plenty of people will indeed get lost or hurt or need rescue, the proportion of these people out of the seething masses that will go up there is quite small.
No offense taken. It's (volunteer) job security for us.. My bigger concern is the additional risk put on my searchers by potentially repeatedly sending them into higher than normal risk areas, for what should be avoidable causes.. It's not like we're not going to go, it's what we train and live for.

User avatar
Koda
Posts: 3437
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 7:54 am

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Koda » March 23rd, 2016, 12:26 pm

I get that data wants to be free, and understand the inevitable consequence of that. But my ethical response is to leave no trace virtually because I side with Bostersons view that the masses are impacting the area negatively and that the internet is definitely contributing to the demise of these locations. Just because data “wants” to be free doesn’t mean we have to let it go.

And that includes the entries in the Field Guide.
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

User avatar
kepPNW
Posts: 6386
Joined: June 21st, 2012, 9:55 am
Location: Salmon Creek

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by kepPNW » March 23rd, 2016, 2:20 pm

Koda wrote:I get that data wants to be free, and understand the inevitable consequence of that. But my ethical response is to leave no trace virtually because I side with Bostersons view that the masses are impacting the area negatively and that the internet is definitely contributing to the demise of these locations. Just because data “wants” to be free doesn’t mean we have to let it go.

And that includes the entries in the Field Guide.
Once it's free, it's free. That's all.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

User avatar
texasbb
Posts: 1103
Joined: July 26th, 2008, 8:16 pm
Location: Tri-Cities, WA

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by texasbb » March 23rd, 2016, 6:44 pm

kepPNW wrote:
Koda wrote:I get that data wants to be free, and understand the inevitable consequence of that. But my ethical response is to leave no trace virtually because I side with Bostersons view that the masses are impacting the area negatively and that the internet is definitely contributing to the demise of these locations. Just because data “wants” to be free doesn’t mean we have to let it go.

And that includes the entries in the Field Guide.
Once it's free, it's free. That's all.
I think that's not all. Once free, trying to put the genie back in the bottle only amplifies interest by some of the ones you'd most like to stay away.

User avatar
Markh752
Posts: 120
Joined: March 18th, 2013, 9:21 pm

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Markh752 » March 24th, 2016, 12:11 am

Bosterson wrote:
potato wrote:I don't feel like the internet is crawling with people who are looking for a hint of new destinations hidden in the gorge...
I suspect you're wrong about this. Again, see the #munrapoint hashtag. The internet is definitely contributing to the popularity of these previously little used areas.

Frankly, and no offense to Lurch because I know it's his job to care about this kind of thing, for the sake of argument I don't especially care if every single "novice" person who wanders up the ROA trail were to accidentally walk off the cliff up there. I agree with you that it's not necessarily society's job to protect people from themselves, and that inexperienced people are generally not actually as stupid (in terms of potentially harming themselves) as one might expect. Even though plenty of people will indeed get lost or hurt or need rescue, the proportion of these people out of the seething masses that will go up there is quite small.

However, the seething masses are the problem. New user trails being cut all over the hillside are the problem.

Image

If it's "elitist" to conclude that the seething masses are (overall) either ignorant or negligent when it comes to their impact on the environment, then so be it, but this is why trails exist in the first place. You simply cannot have that many people using an area without serious impact unless they're all funneled into a very specific path. Maybe not every single one of the novices going to ROA is tromping ferns left and right, but even if the proportion who does is small, the amount of damage the environment can absorb is finite, not proportional. The ferns can take a small proportion of a limited group tromping around (eg, when some of us go off trail), but they can't take a "small" proportion when it's of a skyrocketing number. And most of the new people going up to the arch are "tourist" types running up from their car to check out the arch and then go back down, not hikers who at least theoretically have some exposure to Leave No Trace. I think noting that an increase in environmental damage correlates to an increase in an area's popularity is less about "elitism" and more about empiricism.

Imagine if the Multnomah Falls trail weren't paved - or weren't even a trail at all. Do you think the hillside could take thousands - let alone millions - of people walking over it?
Interesting. How did you obtain that picture? Since you oppose off trail exploration in that area, how did you take that picture? Oh wait...

Image

That might be elitist. No... wait.. it is elitist!!!
:?:
Last edited by Markh752 on March 24th, 2016, 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Markh752
Posts: 120
Joined: March 18th, 2013, 9:21 pm

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Markh752 » March 24th, 2016, 12:19 am

texasbb wrote:Once free, trying to put the genie back in the bottle only amplifies interest by some of the ones you'd most like to stay away.
I agree. There are a lot of hikes that I didn't know about until the last few months. But all of the complaining (on this site) about how they shouldn't be talked about has made me aware of the secret hikes. :lol:

User avatar
Bosterson
Posts: 2087
Joined: May 18th, 2009, 3:17 pm
Location: Portland

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Bosterson » March 24th, 2016, 7:12 am

Markh752 wrote: Interesting. How did you obtain that picture? Since you oppose off trail exploration in that area, how did you take that picture? Oh wait...

Image

That might be elitist. No... wait.. it is elitist!!!
:?:
Not sure I follow you. That pic was taken at the bottom of Devil's Backbone, where the "trail" used to be. Now a slightly tricky scramble is required to get around it. The other picture of the user chutes was also taken from the trail near the top of Ponytail Falls. :idea:
#pnw #bestlife #bitingflies #favoriteyellowcap #neverdispleased

User avatar
Markh752
Posts: 120
Joined: March 18th, 2013, 9:21 pm

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Markh752 » March 24th, 2016, 7:59 am

Bosterson wrote:Not sure I follow you. That pic was taken at the bottom of Devil's Backbone, where the "trail" used to be. Now a slightly tricky scramble is required to get around it. The other picture of the user chutes was also taken from the trail near the top of Ponytail Falls. :idea:
Maybe there was some confusion on my part since the TR was titled "Destruction on ROA" and I do not know a lot about the Gorge since I tend to not hike in areas that see 100's of people every day.
My point was, if you are against special places becoming popular... don't start threads about those special places and include a map of those special places. Don't post TR's of off trail damage that others are doing when you are doing that same thing. I really don't care if you do or don't post about special places. It's an individual decision that each of us get to make and our opinion can change over time.
Threads like this bother me. All of us come hear to share information. But threads like this tend to temper that sharing of information. Meanwhile, the problem gets exponentially worse.

User avatar
Koda
Posts: 3437
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 7:54 am

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Koda » March 24th, 2016, 9:53 am

Markh752 wrote:
Bosterson wrote:Not sure I follow you. That pic was taken at the bottom of Devil's Backbone, where the "trail" used to be. Now a slightly tricky scramble is required to get around it. The other picture of the user chutes was also taken from the trail near the top of Ponytail Falls. :idea:
Maybe there was some confusion on my part since the TR was titled "Destruction on ROA" and I do not know a lot about the Gorge since I tend to not hike in areas that see 100's of people every day.
My point was, if you are against special places becoming popular... don't start threads about those special places and include a map of those special places. Don't post TR's of off trail damage that others are doing when you are doing that same thing. I really don't care if you do or don't post about special places. It's an individual decision that each of us get to make and our opinion can change over time.
Threads like this bother me. All of us come hear to share information. But threads like this tend to temper that sharing of information. Meanwhile, the problem gets exponentially worse.
I think you misread Bostersons other thread about the ROA trail. I didn’t read Bosterson was against anyplace becoming popular, I read he was sharing what the storm damage was and the result of the masses trying to get around it. The cats outta the bag on the ROA (or as we like to say here the data has been freed…) I don’t think there is anyone advocating hiding its secrets. The question was asked was what can be done to prevent the erosion and impact from the people trying to get around the storm damage (paraphrased)?
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

Lurch
Posts: 1260
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: What in the hay now?

Post by Lurch » March 24th, 2016, 9:56 am

Markh752 wrote:Maybe there was some confusion on my part since the TR was titled "Destruction on ROA" and I do not know a lot about the Gorge since I tend to not hike in areas that see 100's of people every day.
My point was, if you are against special places becoming popular... don't start threads about those special places and include a map of those special places. Don't post TR's of off trail damage that others are doing when you are doing that same thing. I really don't care if you do or don't post about special places. It's an individual decision that each of us get to make and our opinion can change over time.
Threads like this bother me. All of us come hear to share information. But threads like this tend to temper that sharing of information. Meanwhile, the problem gets exponentially worse.
Mayhaps if you don't have knowledge of the area being discussed, you should refrain from posting flamebait towards someone trying to bring attention to damage being done, in a thread that's about discussing damage being done?

Post Reply