Compasses just aren’t that useful

Cartography, maps, navigation, GPS and more.
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kaltbluter
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by kaltbluter » July 7th, 2016, 10:32 am

aiwetir wrote:I pull the compass out and much to my chagrin, I'm going directly south, not SSW or SSE, but directly 180° from what I thought.
I did something similar while hunting a few years back. I was heading home for the day and I knew there was a road South from my location. When I started into the trees I was going the right direction. I checked my heading about half an hour later and I had turned to face directly East, travelling parallel to the road. I felt like I had been going in a straight line the whole time.

That experience gave me a better understanding of how people could get lost in the woods.

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kepPNW
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by kepPNW » July 7th, 2016, 11:18 am

kaltbluter wrote:
kepPNW wrote:
kaltbluter wrote:I still use a compass. Especially when I'm off trail in thick brushy forest where I can't see the horizon or sky.
Seriously? Why?
I have a hard time keeping on the correct heading when I can't see anything but trees (think coast range). It's surprisingly easy start following contours or game trails and end up going off course.

A compass is small and easy to glance at every few minutes for course corrections.
Ahhh, sure, but so is a GPS. Well, maybe not as small, but certainly as easy. Toss-up! :-)
Koda wrote:
kepPNW wrote:Discuss! :D
if you've used your GPS youve used 'a' compass...

;)
Shhhhhh! :lol: :lol: :lol: 8-)
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

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kepPNW
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by kepPNW » July 7th, 2016, 11:32 am

Lurch wrote:
kepPNW wrote:
Lurch wrote:For a supposed "expert" there seems to be a lot of bad or misguided information in there...
Anything in particular?
Well the first two things for his answer of which navigational tools to bring are a Map and Compass.. so it seems a little hypocritical to then claim they're not useful.
That's not very fair, as he clearly didn't say that. There's a helluva distinction between "not useful" and "not that useful." Navigation for the moonshots was performed with sliderules. Would we still use them today, on a new mission?
Lurch wrote:To claim that no one is teaching the full set is just false, and reeks of marketing talk. The whole article smells like marketing more than content, and that's probably what turned me off too it.
Now that I can understand! And agree with. Although, not being a "competitor" (so to speak), it didn't bother me to the same degree.
Lurch wrote:His answer to 'Can you rely too much on technology' completely dodges the point of the question. Realistically all those tools should be used in conjunction.
Not knowing how to use any of them is a self-inflicted handicap, yes. But there's rarely any reason to use all of them outside of extremely narrow fields of endeavor. (SAR possibly being one.)
Lurch wrote:If you're only staying on trail than your navigational needs are minimal, but if you're doing off trail or backcountry travel covering large distances your navigational skillset needs to increase. I don't preach map and compass over GPS. In reality we will naturally use a GPS more, it's better at a *lot* of things. But proper navigation relies on using all your tools in your toolbelt. You *can* navigate purely with a map, purely with a compass, purely with a GPS. You're going to navigate best by using all 3 together. To scrap two of them and remove all redundancy to the system is extremely unwise.

Digital maps are awesome, I love having a tablet with high res quads of the whole gorge, it's a good alternative, but that's not a substitute for an actual paper map that doesn't require batteries.
Again, I'm pretty sure you're the one misrepresenting what was said. I could re-read it, just to be sure, but I certainly didn't come away with the same message. I actually think he's saying the very same thing as you are, but in a way that rubs you wrong because it serves to discount, to a small degree, your extensive skillset.
Lurch wrote:I would honestly say the main problem with people currently is that they *pack* a map and compass because that's what they've been told to do, but they've never been taught how to use them, and never trained with them in a realistic situation.
Well, I'd say the "main problem with people" is they're stubbornly stuck in their ways. But I agree that many wouldn't know how to navigate the simplest trail systems without following the herd no matter what was in their pack (assuming they have one!).
Karl
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texasbb
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by texasbb » July 7th, 2016, 11:59 am

kepPNW wrote:Cite: http://www.columbian.com/news/2016/jul/ ... ion-tools/
Steve McClure wrote:It’s heresy to say it out loud, but compasses just aren’t that useful. Most experienced wilderness wanderers I know rarely take their compass out of their pack.
Yep. In my last 250 hikes, I haven't had to refer to a compass once.
I haven't had to refer to a GPS in my last 50+ years of hikes.

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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by Lurch » July 7th, 2016, 12:11 pm

Koda wrote:Im not a professional, but it seems to me that you cant teach someone how to use a gps without teaching them how to use a map and compass... otherwise they can just read the gps instruction manual. Would that be a correct statement?
I would say you could train someone to do specific tasks on a GPS without the other skillsets, but being able to apply those, or use them to any reasonable benefit would be dramatically limited.
aiwetir wrote:Not that useful until it is, like in a whiteout. In wildlife biology in the past, they were very useful and I've worn out a few compasses, but honestly, outside of the very specific navigation applications I've used them for, and peak finding, I've only ever used a compass once because I was on flat land. Topography means more.
I think that's another reason this article rubbed me the wrong way. It seems to imply the use of a compass is extremely limited, in reality it's not. Nearly all modern compasses are multifunctional, and they are extremely versatile in their field application. It's not all about finding your location.
kepPNW wrote:Ahhh, sure, but so is a GPS. Well, maybe not as small, but certainly as easy. Toss-up! :-)
Maybe it is because of the level of detail and accuracy I require when I teach people navigation, but I would disagree. Cross country navigation by GPS alone leads to wandering, often in snaking patterns or even circles, instead of direct and intentional movement. Most commonly I will use a GPS to get a bearing from MY location to my destination, and use the compass to follow it.
kepPNW wrote: That's not very fair, as he clearly didn't say that. There's a helluva distinction between "not useful" and "not that useful." Navigation for the moonshots was performed with sliderules. Would we still use them today, on a new mission?
My bad, I believe I misread some weird combination of the original post and the article in my head somewhere along the lines as a recommendation to lose physical maps and compasses as a whole!
kepPNW wrote: Not knowing how to use any of them is a self-inflicted handicap, yes. But there's rarely any reason to use all of them outside of extremely narrow fields of endeavor. (SAR possibly being one.)
kepPNW wrote: Again, I'm pretty sure you're the one misrepresenting what was said. I could re-read it, just to be sure, but I certainly didn't come away with the same message. I actually think he's saying the very same thing as you are, but in a way that rubs you wrong because it serves to discount, to a small degree, your extensive skillset.
That's possible, but I think there's a lot to be gained from having the skillsets mentioned. As noted in the article, people lack general situational awareness, so I would ever want to imply that certain skills are unnecessary. The more knowledge people have the better!

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kaltbluter
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by kaltbluter » July 7th, 2016, 12:21 pm

kepPNW wrote: Ahhh, sure, but so is a GPS. Well, maybe not as small, but certainly as easy. Toss-up! :-)
Up until six months ago I was using an old Garmin Etrex with no elecronic compass and no base map, its main purpose was recording tracks. For navigation purposes I'd much rather have a compass.

Now I have a newer unit with fancy maps, compass, and the ability to maintain a signal in thick forest. I'm pretty sure I could stow the old compass and be perfectly happy.

But I'll still keep carrying(and using) a compass. Being able to navigate without batteries isn't something I'm ready to give up.

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Koda
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by Koda » July 7th, 2016, 1:43 pm

Lurch wrote:
Koda wrote:Im not a professional, but it seems to me that you cant teach someone how to use a gps without teaching them how to use a map and compass... otherwise they can just read the gps instruction manual. Would that be a correct statement?
I would say you could train someone to do specific tasks on a GPS without the other skillsets, but being able to apply those, or use them to any reasonable benefit would be dramatically limited.
Im curious what are the specific tasks taught in a GPS class?


My take on it is a GPS device is a lot like a cell phone, 95% of what you do with it is not what its main purpose it… to get you to a waypoint, and that’s really it. Teaching someone how to virtually drop a pin on an on-screen map and hit “go to” and following an arrow pointer, isn’t really teaching them how to navigate… in the truest sense of navigation anyways. They probably don’t even need to set/adjust for declination with a gps. The rest of the functions are mostly irrelevant, importing and exporting tracks, base maps, EG, notes, moon phases, etc. etc.… yeah, its cool to see your track on a computer screen later on though.
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kepPNW
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by kepPNW » July 7th, 2016, 1:48 pm

Lurch wrote:
kepPNW wrote:Ahhh, sure, but so is a GPS. Well, maybe not as small, but certainly as easy. Toss-up! :-)
Maybe it is because of the level of detail and accuracy I require when I teach people navigation, but I would disagree. Cross country navigation by GPS alone leads to wandering, often in snaking patterns or even circles, instead of direct and intentional movement. Most commonly I will use a GPS to get a bearing from MY location to my destination, and use the compass to follow it.
It might be said that navigation by GPS affords the luxury of wandering, too. No need to follow a straight path, which may or may not even be passable, because you always have a bearing.
Lurch wrote:
kepPNW wrote:That's not very fair, as he clearly didn't say that. There's a helluva distinction between "not useful" and "not that useful." Navigation for the moonshots was performed with sliderules. Would we still use them today, on a new mission?
My bad, I believe I misread some weird combination of the original post and the article in my head somewhere along the lines as a recommendation to lose physical maps and compasses as a whole!
I'm seeing that a lot in comments related to this article. I'd react pretty negatively to such a suggestion myself. But it seems to be along similar lines to, "Obama is gonna take yer guns away!" ;) Very emotional, but entirely without basis.
Lurch wrote:I think there's a lot to be gained from having the skillsets mentioned. As noted in the article, people lack general situational awareness, so I would ever want to imply that certain skills are unnecessary. The more knowledge people have the better!
Full agreement! :)
Karl
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-Q-
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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by -Q- » July 7th, 2016, 8:18 pm

I refer to my compass all the time.
My map as well.
Not just for local navigation (which is very often on every hike), but for identifying peaks/landmarks etc in the distance.

I don't own a gps, nor do I want one, so for me a compass is essential

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Re: Compasses just aren’t that useful

Post by Lurch » July 8th, 2016, 7:11 am

Koda wrote:Im curious what are the specific tasks taught in a GPS class?

My take on it is a GPS device is a lot like a cell phone, 95% of what you do with it is not what its main purpose it… to get you to a waypoint, and that’s really it. Teaching someone how to virtually drop a pin on an on-screen map and hit “go to” and following an arrow pointer, isn’t really teaching them how to navigate… in the truest sense of navigation anyways. They probably don’t even need to set/adjust for declination with a gps. The rest of the functions are mostly irrelevant, importing and exporting tracks, base maps, EG, notes, moon phases, etc. etc.… yeah, its cool to see your track on a computer screen later on though.
I was going to try and type up a response on my phone last night, but that just wasn't working out.

What I meant by my statement, was that you could train someone to pull a set of coordinates off a GPS, but if they didn't know coordinate systems, or what to do with them it's just a pile of numbers.

For the most part, if I'm teaching GPS, I've already taught them compass work (shooting / following bearings in the field), map work (terrain association, coordinate systems, etc), and map & compass work (plotting bearings, finding bearings, distance, etc). They have a fundamental understanding of navigation in general, so the terminology and the material from a GPS fits into a larger skillset.

Most people will never use all the features on a GPS, but in order to be competent I would say the short list would be somewhere along knowing how to:
  • Turn it on and change batteries :roll: (you'd be surprised)
  • How to tell if you have an accurate fix
  • Basic understanding of the satellite screen
  • Setup
    • Map Datum
    • Position Format (coordinate system)
    • North Reference
    • Distance Units
    • Heading Display
  • Create a waypoint for a current location
  • Create a waypoint for a given location
  • Edit an existing waypoint
  • Delete a waypoint
  • Clearing Tracks
  • Starting Tracks
  • Saving Tracks
That would just be for the using side, there's more to that list if you're the one pulling data off the GPS and onto a computer or something. If you can do *that* stuff, and you have the basics for map and compass down, I think you've got a good knowledge base to build on.

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