Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

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RobFromRedland
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by RobFromRedland » February 4th, 2021, 5:32 am

greenjello85 wrote:
February 3rd, 2021, 9:57 pm
One big factor driving the concentrated crowds right now is all the areas that are closed from the fires.
I completely agree with this. The Clackamas district now consists of access to 3 roads - PERIOD and those 3 roads are a zoo of off roaders and shooters.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard ANYTHING on the re-opening of highway 224? Highway 22 has been re-opened for months now and 224 is still closed with no announced plan or even phased re-opening. The only info I've been able to get is "this is anticipated to be a long term closure" - what does that even mean?

It would be nice if ODOT and the Forest service would provide SOME guidance on when they expect things to re-open and if it truly is going to be a "long term" closure, WHY it has to be long term. The limited photos I've seen show they've been cutting hazard trees like crazy down 224. It would seem like the revenue from the cut/burned timber could be used to help offset the cost of the work.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: WOW-What a ride!

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xrp
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by xrp » February 4th, 2021, 6:13 am

adamschneider wrote:
February 3rd, 2021, 5:11 pm
xrp wrote:
February 3rd, 2021, 9:55 am
Most indoor things families would do are not open or are open at greatly reduced capacity because of Kate Brown.
In the U.S., Oregon has the 4th-lowest number of COVID-19 deaths (and 5th-lowest number of cases) per capita. Are you going to give Kate Brown any credit for that, or just blame her for the things you don't like?
That wouldn't make sense at all considering other states enacted the same draconian imprisonment of their populace like Oregon but with worse results. For example, California, New Jersey, New York, Michigan and Illinois. Then you compare those states to states that have been open/relatively open, such as Oklahoma, Missouri, Ohio, Florida and Idaho.

So, saying that Oregon's governor's actions resulted in lower statistics isn't how science works. Sorry.
Last edited by xrp on February 4th, 2021, 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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xrp
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by xrp » February 4th, 2021, 6:19 am

jessbee wrote:
February 3rd, 2021, 9:06 pm

Thank you for this. I would hope that as a community we could agree to speaking of all people respectfully, whether they agree with us, or look like us, or enjoy the same things as us, or not. That is the first step in finding a solution to sons of the concerns brought up by the OP.

As for more government funding and support of parks with more usage, it's important to remember that we have to *ask for * and *advocate for* this to happen. Yes, it's boring and time consuming and it takes away from your outdoor adventure time, but it's the only way things get done. Not by magic and without any legwork.

We need to pressure our representatives to support more funding for parks. We need to support non profits who do that legwork for us and lobby for change. Instead of moaning and groaning on internet message boards we have to take that energy and put it where it matters.
No, the first step to finding a solution is understanding the root cause of the problem. That would begin by asking people like the ones the Original Poster was discussing why they decided to recreate in the wilderness/national forest as opposed to somewhere else. Without that information, you build solutions in search of a problem, which is a waste.

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retired jerry
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by retired jerry » February 4th, 2021, 6:33 am

Governor Inslee is almost as good as governor Brown, Washington is the 5th best state for infections per capita

Actually, that's not fair. Washington was hit before any other state. Inslee had the most difficult problem. Amazing that Washington has recovered so well. Washington could have been New York. Brown was just following Inslee's lead.

They've both done really well.

Other states like New York have implemented draconian policies with very poor results. It's complicated, more than just the actions of the governor. Yet, I think you have to judge governor Cuomo based on the very poor results in New York.

Same with California.

Whatever Brown and Inslee did, you have to give them credit based on the results. And social distance and wear a mask when in public.

Or, better to compare with other countries like Taiwan, South Korea, Australia,... The U.S. has done much worse than any other large country.

I think we need to look at ourselves and ask what it is about us that has given us such poor results. Like, why don't we listen to the health experts and avoid infecting each other?

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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by AlpenGlowHiker » February 4th, 2021, 6:47 am

Lets stop bitching (I know everyone loves to do it), and take some action!

Here are a few things that I took away from the comments;
  • Raise Awareness of LNT
  • Write the congress about additional funding
  • Support the non-profits who do the lobbying for you

I'm sure there are more ways, and I know that we can create a list of the groups who would do the lobbying. Additionally, there are several areas of government that has say/control over their lands, how do you address that?

TL;DR (Bottom line): We all agree of the overcrowding situation, regardless of how it came to be, so lets put an actionable plan together and move on it.
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xrp
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by xrp » February 4th, 2021, 6:57 am

retired jerry wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:33 am
Governor Inslee is almost as good as governor Brown, Washington is the 5th best state for infections per capita

Actually, that's not fair. Washington was hit before any other state. Inslee had the most difficult problem. Amazing that Washington has recovered so well. Washington could have been New York. Brown was just following Inslee's lead.

They've both done really well.

Other states like New York have implemented draconian policies with very poor results. It's complicated, more than just the actions of the governor. Yet, I think you have to judge governor Cuomo based on the very poor results in New York.

Same with California.

Whatever Brown and Inslee did, you have to give them credit based on the results. And social distance and wear a mask when in public.

Or, better to compare with other countries like Taiwan, South Korea, Australia,... The U.S. has done much worse than any other large country.

I think we need to look at ourselves and ask what it is about us that has given us such poor results. Like, why don't we listen to the health experts and avoid infecting each other?
How can you give Brown and Inslee credit when Newsom, Cuomo and Murphy took the same actions yet yielded starkly different results? That's like saying in WA/OR 2 + 2 = 4 and in CA/NY/NJ 2 + 2 = 10. It just doesn't add up.

Regarding Taiwan/SK/AUS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU0b-En ... vorCummins <-- here's a convincing hypothesis. For reference, this guy predicted SARS-CoV-2 seasonality and the return of SARS-CoV-2 in the fall of 2020, but he did it all back in the summer of 2020.

Also, "Like, why don't we listen to the health experts and avoid infecting each other?" <-- the problem here is that what the people on TV say to do doesn't line up with results. Ivor's data dives are fascinating, citing factors like seasonality, humidity and Vitamin D levels. It's actually a shame that better preventative measures were not championed; such as keeping the indoors humidified to 40%-60% relative humidity and getting Vitamin D levels above 30ng/mL. There would have been much less impact, based on data comparing Japan to Italy. But, for some reason, everyone thinks "masks and vaccine" are the solution when data proves otherwise (compare Sweden to United Kingdom and Italy).
Last edited by xrp on February 4th, 2021, 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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xrp
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by xrp » February 4th, 2021, 7:28 am

RobFromRedland wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 5:32 am
greenjello85 wrote:
February 3rd, 2021, 9:57 pm
One big factor driving the concentrated crowds right now is all the areas that are closed from the fires.
Speaking of which, has anyone heard ANYTHING on the re-opening of highway 224? Highway 22 has been re-opened for months now and 224 is still closed with no announced plan or even phased re-opening. The only info I've been able to get is "this is anticipated to be a long term closure" - what does that even mean?

It would be nice if ODOT and the Forest service would provide SOME guidance on when they expect things to re-open and if it truly is going to be a "long term" closure, WHY it has to be long term.
It's probably difficult for them to gauge. They might not have the full scope of the problem. Then there's the variable of resource availability to tackle the problem. Having workers go out for 10-14 days because they are SARS-CoV-2 PCR test positive could definitely impact completion date projections.

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Guy
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by Guy » February 4th, 2021, 7:39 am

retired jerry wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 6:33 am
The U.S. has done much worse than any other large country.
Well not really when you look at the data per capita. The US is about in the middle of the pack when compared to the EU & UK. The US did squander the advantage it had over the EU in the Spring last year but there really isn't much difference in infection or death rates with the EU as a whole.

Even the Vaccine rollout, the US is 3 or 4th in the world now as a percentage of population vaccinated.

NZ & Australia - Yes they have done much better but based on location & less access to the country and the lower population makes it easier to support them when not working with very strict lock downs. Friends in Melbourne were locked down for 16 weeks last year through their winter with a 5 mile travel limit no exceptions. Even going to work required a special permit if it was more that 5 miles away.

South Korea, Japan, The people in these counties have a greater concern for the common good and are less concerned with individual freedom than we in America and Europe are. It makes a difference.

Other parts of the world, like South America, Russia, China. Well I don't believe their official stats at all.

Yes I know this has nothing to do with overcrowded Public lands :)
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drm
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by drm » February 4th, 2021, 8:12 am

California's COVID mortality rate is actually quite low compared to the other states. They currently rate #33 of the 50 states, so better than most other states. So despite the bad spike they recently had, they have done a relatively good job. Of course the northeast states were struck before anybody knew what hit them. I would add that the states that have been most resistant to taking protective measures, like the Dakotas, are the only ones who have joined the northeastern states at the top of the mortality rates. And they had plenty of notice, but apparently no concern for saving life. Just too much of a nuisance.

Since states cannot control who travels between states, individual state policy only goes so far. I would add that Oregon's excellently low mortality rating - yes, thank you Gov. Brown - is only behind four other states, two of which are Alaska and Hawaii, who obviously do have certain advantages (Maine and Vermont are the other two).

I did the math a couple weeks ago. If Oregon had the mortality rate of the median state - Tennessee at the time - 2500 more Oregonians would have died. And that's just for the median. So once again, thank you Governor Brown for saving thousands of Oregon lives. Credit where credit is due.

(PS - the US has done a LOT WORSE than most other large countries, but I won't go into those statistics now, other than to point out that last I checked we were among the 10 worst for per capita death - out of some 160 countries)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 ... -by-state/

Back to the subject at hand, when thinking of people who "enjoy" the wilderness differently than I do, I would differentiate between a literal difference, for example people who are loud and boisterous in the outdoors, but still enjoying the outdoors (compared to those who like quiet introspection), and those who are doing something technological that they could do at home, like playing video games. The latter are in the wilderness, but not obviously enjoying it.

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xrp
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Re: Public Lands Getting HAMMERED by Crowds

Post by xrp » February 4th, 2021, 8:29 am

drm wrote:
February 4th, 2021, 8:12 am
Since states cannot control who travels between states, individual state policy only goes so far. I would add that Oregon's excellently low mortality rating - yes, thank you Gov. Brown - is only behind four other states, two of which are Alaska and Hawaii, who obviously do have certain advantages (Maine and Vermont are the other two).
Remember that you can't take credit for the successes of your actions unless you take credit for the failings of your actions. Politicians usually ignore the latter, but Pepperidge Farm remembers.

So, make sure to thank Lockdown Brown for:

1) Schools still closed

2) Students' depression

3) Students' suicides

4) Oregon's unemployment rate

5) Oregon's drop from #29 destination to #45 (https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/22 ... on-Growth/)

6) Massive loss of small businesses (https://pdx.eater.com/22240842/portland ... e-closings) and (https://www.oregonbusiness.com/article/ ... d-closures)

Definitely a job well done! :D

You can thank her here:

https://www.oregon.gov/gov/pages/share- ... inion.aspx

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