Flag Point Lookout vandalism

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justpeachy
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by justpeachy » June 22nd, 2016, 6:29 am

-Q- wrote:This vandalism must have been somewhat recent??
From what I've heard, the lookout has always been a target for vandalism because of its close proximity to the communities on the east side of the MHNF, but this latest incident must have been a doozy. The lookout can be rented up through the end of May (and is usually booked through that whole time), and the FS probably goes up there in early or mid June to make sure it's ready for staffing. I'm guessing the vandalism happened during that gap and was discovered when the FS went up to check on things.

This automated twitter account alerts people to the availability (or lack thereof) of the lookout rentals in the MHNF. The last time someone made a Flag Point reservation was on June 9, so the Forest Service must have had Recreation.gov stop further reservations later that day.

justpeachy
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by justpeachy » June 22nd, 2016, 6:57 am

I just talked to the Barlow Ranger Station and what they told me completely contradicted the recorded message I heard when Recreation.gov called me yesterday. The RS said the lookout was going to still be staffed, but that the FS couldn't keep up with the upkeep required of a rental. (I would think that the level of upkeep for a staffer and for a renter would be the same, but what do I know?) They also told me that people who had already made a reservation were supposed to be able to keep their reservation, but no new ones would be accepted, which is not what I heard from Recreation.gov

So who knows what real the story is.

greenjello85
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by greenjello85 » June 22nd, 2016, 8:10 am

justpeachy wrote:I just talked to the Barlow Ranger Station and what they told me completely contradicted the recorded message I heard when Recreation.gov called me yesterday. The RS said the lookout was going to still be staffed, but that the FS couldn't keep up with the upkeep required of a rental. (I would think that the level of upkeep for a staffer and for a renter would be the same, but what do I know?) They also told me that people who had already made a reservation were supposed to be able to keep their reservation, but no new ones would be accepted, which is not what I heard from Recreation.gov

So who knows what real the story is.
This doesn't make any sense. If the rental isn't covering the cost of maintenence, why not just increase the rental fees? Everytime I've looked into one of these they have been booked out for months. Freaking MHNF. :roll:

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kepPNW
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by kepPNW » June 22nd, 2016, 8:47 am

justpeachy wrote:I would think that the level of upkeep for a staffer and for a renter would be the same, but what do I know?
Guessing the staffer "just does" the basic upkeep while already under their employment, so there'd be no additional cost there. I know someone who used to work there, and can ask for more insight.
Karl
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sprengers4jc
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by sprengers4jc » June 22nd, 2016, 9:09 am

greenjello85 wrote:This doesn't make any sense. If the rental isn't covering the cost of maintenence, why not just increase the rental fees? Everytime I've looked into one of these they have been booked out for months. Freaking MHNF. :roll:
My thoughts exactly, jello. Anything that books out six months ahead of time is obviously popular. Raise the cost $5 more per night or something but let's keep what we already have. But, the go-to move for MHNF always seems to be to decommission or defer rather than put forth a little effort. I was at the Zigzag RS recently and a guy came in and reported that when he was near Rock Creek, a giant truck pulled off the side of the road and a bunch of guys with rifles piled out of it and into the woods. The ranger behind the desk said to him, 'Well, first of all that's not our district. You will probably have to tell the people at Barlow. Second, it's not illegal to carry guns into the woods. But, if they are shooting someTHING they shouldn't, or someONE they shouldn't, well then we can do something about it.' After he left (looking fairly disheartened about the matter) I said, 'I couldn't help but overhear that conversation...' and she did a 'Yeah, can you believe he's bothering us with that?' face. I said, 'I would like to know at what point shooting someONE is acceptable?' She had nothing to say to that. And when the next person walked in and reported an intentionally-destroyed tree near Cast Lake, the ranger shrugged her shoulders like, 'So?' Even if there is nothing the ranger can actually do, discouraging someone from reporting future incidents by not even pretending to care really does send the wrong message.

In the past, I have thought some of the posters here were too harsh on an agency always strapped for funding and manpower, with enormous areas to cover. But I, too, have changed my tune in the last year after multiple incidents of incompetence (does it really take input from four rangers to figure out if the road to the extremely-popular trail at Trillium Lake is gated yet?); strict adherence to ridiculous agendas (such as forcibly removing the Owl Point signage and causing confusion as a result), and outright hostility like what I overheard.

Closing the Flag Point lookout, which provides an immersive experience for families to enjoy the outdoors, hurts all of us. The night my family stayed at the Clear Lake Butte lookout was the best and most unique experience we have had in the outdoors. Those kinds of experiences ensure that folks continue to see the value in public lands, and build the sort of stewards we will need in the future if we hope to retain our ability to recreate on our lands. It seems that with just a little effort and creativity from MHNF, maybe Flag Point could stay open.
'We travel not to escape life but for life to not escape us.'
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justpeachy
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by justpeachy » June 22nd, 2016, 10:21 am

greenjello85 wrote:If the rental isn't covering the cost of maintenence, why not just increase the rental fees? Everytime I've looked into one of these they have been booked out for months.
I recently heard an employee from a different NF say that the money that comes in from recreation rentals doesn't even come close to covering the maintenance costs of the structures. Flag Point is rentable November through May (212 days) at $50 a night, which comes out to $10,600 annually. I don't know how much it costs to maintain a lookout but surely that kind of money would cover a significant majority of the cost, especially if the summer staffer is doing maintenance while they're there and someone else doesn't have to be paid to go out there and do maintenance work.

The Forest Service doesn't release specifics on recreation rentals, the income earned, and where that money goes (at least not that I can find). I wouldn't be surprised if the rental money just goes back into some kind of general fund, despite claims that the money goes back to the lookout or guard station.

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drm
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by drm » June 22nd, 2016, 1:12 pm

$10,600 per year should be enough for standard maintenance, but if something breaks, it's a whole different story. FS is not allowed to let a handy person fix major things. Professionals have to be brought in, drive up there, etc.

At this point we don't even know if it closing as Cheryl has gotten different stories from different people. I know people who have dealt with recreation.gov and you have to go through some rigamarole to set up a message for them to send out, like the standard message they send to renters who make a reservation. It's possible the message that was sent out was created for some other lookout or event and didn't get updated for this case. I would tend to believe the FS office more than an automated message from recreation.gov. But somehow confirm before you go!

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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by justpeachy » June 22nd, 2016, 2:08 pm

drm wrote:I would tend to believe the FS office more than an automated message from recreation.gov
Well, in my experience the front desk people answering the phone at ranger stations are usually the people with the least amount of information and the last people to find out important updates. This seems to be especially true in the Mt. Hood NF.

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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by justpeachy » June 22nd, 2016, 2:19 pm

Zach Urness with the Statesman Journal was able to get more information.
"The repeated incidents of vandalism created a situation where repairing it, up to the standard required for rental, was just costing too much. It's a shame we're not able to keep it open."
http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/t ... /86264022/

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woodswalker
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Re: Flag Point Lookout vandalism

Post by woodswalker » June 23rd, 2016, 9:55 am

I worked at Flag Point tower for 5 years. I'm very sad the rental program has stopped, but it was being discussed as a possibility many years ago. There are actually huge differences in upkeep for staffers vs rental guests. During fire season, supervisors, radio equipment folks and fire fighters are fairly regularly stopping by the tower, because they can drive up to it. If it becomes clear that a staffer is harming the tower or not maintaining sanitation levels, it is obvious pretty quickly. Also as a staffer, you have to live with it and you learn fast what works and what doesn't. Rental guests range from those who treat the tower with love and know how to be in a wilderness setting, as regards to food etc. to those who are quite the opposite. During the winter access is by foot, so damage can really set in before it is noticed. A very common problem for example was people tend to think it is fine to chop kindling on the steps, floor, hearth etc, if there is snow on the ground, despite signs. Not bad intentioned, just not understanding. Same with food. People always left extra food at the tower. The sink pipe commonly froze from large food scraps being put down it and would burst. During the winter, if you are snow shoeing in, it is difficult to carry enough water to really cleanup the fridge, counters etc if needed or someone before you made a mess, so things would get pretty trashed and moldy. Cleanup usually took a full day or more at the start of our season. I always read the tower winter journal and was amazed along with the majority of visitors, who followed groups who partied up there and would use the catwalk as their outhouse for example, or throw a large plastic sack of garbage into the outhouse.
I really want Flag Point to be kept as a rental and staffed. I love it. It's a valuable treasure. And it is a remote area. More than once I provided people with directions and water. I'm not sure what the solution is. A few years back they raised the rental prices and apparently still had problems. As for vandalism, Flag Point is also one of the towers that you can easily access by car or Atv or snowmobile. There is a gate, but people would sometimes offroad it around the gate damaging the pika colony habitat.
At some point the tower is going to go. The amount of dead trees and down wood in the are have quadrupled over the last few years. A fire through there would burn very hot and the area probably needs it, as much as it would break my heart.
The Forest Service also seemed to have a difficult time doing basic maintenance on the tower, for whatever reason. I won't jump into that here, although I'm sure we all have opinions on that. Suffice it to say, that the problems and damage are very real, but I am oh so very sad, to hear that change is in the air.
Woodswalker AKA Colette Grace

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