All Firearms Discussions in This Thread

[airoff]

You can have a historical debate about what some people wrote down 220 years ago when the USA was young and the standard military weapon was a musket and every state had a militia or something. What does it have to do with today? Why not base our laws about guns on the best research we can produce, instead of extrapolating them from a practically ancient document?

There is a saying that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

What does a document written 220 years ago have to do with today? Well, it really wasn't that long ago that a million jews were persecuted and murdered under an oppressive government. Other countries have suffered genocide since then as well. There are still many other civil liberties that only recently in history been properly allowed. Are those rights worth fighting for? And on what level. Can it happen again? Here in America? Maybe as time goes on and all the worlds imperfections are worked out and we become a world of peace will personal ownership of military weapons really be reduced to competition shooting matches at established clubs ect. But really, how is anyone free at any time if they do not have the capability to stand up for their rights and resist oppression?

220 years ago was not that long compared to the time its been since history has been recorded. America is unique in that we are the only country in the world with a constitutional right that gives the power to its people to resist government oppression and have the ability to protect themselves from harm. I've heard arguments that the people are the militia, but however you read it its very clear "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Its been upheld by the supreme court.

Of course the men you're speaking of WERE the oppressive government. They owned slaves and denied even the most basic rights to anyone who wasn't a male land owner. So to trust their infinite wisdom seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. When I hear a good answer as to why the wise men who wrote this freedom document only allowed a select group of people to actually exercise these rights, perhaps I'll understand this refusal to ever acknowledge that perhaps they weren't as "wise" as we're told.

Oppression and wisdom aren't synonymous. These men did not bestow freedom upon us, we took it from them. So when you ask if genocide and oppression can happen here, it already has. This country was built on it.

[Aimless]

From what I have read in this thread so far, there is some hiking-related content, but the stronger tendency is toward politics and political theory, with some side excursions inot history to bolster the political arguments.

I cast my vote for moving this to Idle Chatter. Quickly.

[airoff]

From what I have read in this thread so far, there is some hiking-related content, but the stronger tendency is toward politics and political theory, with some side excursions inot history to bolster the political arguments.

I cast my vote for moving this to Idle Chatter. Quickly.

You're 100% correct; it's impossible to remove strongly held political and social beliefs from this discussion. I tried to refrain from jumping in and failed badly.

I'm all for moving it, if not simply deleting it so we can all get back to being tffs.

[Eric Peterson]

I'm all for moving it, if not simply deleting it so we can all get back to being tffs.

Awesome!

[retired jerry]

Weird story Chase.

Maybe you could take that as an example of how you don't need to worry, even in the unlikely chance you encounter weirdos, it will probably end up okay...

[Koda]

Weird story Chase.

Maybe you could take that as an example of how you don't need to worry, even in the unlikely chance you encounter weirdos, it will probably end up okay...

based on Chases story it didn't end up ok. Not for anyone including Chase. At the very least he was denied his rightful free passage to where he wanted to go. Based on his encounter, and the verbal assault and threats that alone was not ok. It worked out well for him because he made every attempt to de-escalate the situation.

[retired jerry]

That's my point

If you avoid trouble, you probably will avoid trouble

And if you're flexible and just do a slightly different trip, that trip will end up being nice also.

If you say it's your right to do a particular trip, even though it makes "your spidey senses tingle", you are more likely to get into trouble.

If you bring a gun, I think statistics say that it is more likely you or someone in your party will get into trouble. But I'm not going to criticize anyone else for deciding otherwise. If you are well trained, lock up your gun,... then maybe the statistics don't really apply.

[Koda]

Of course the men you're speaking of WERE the oppressive government. They owned slaves and denied even the most basic rights to anyone who wasn't a male land owner. So to trust their infinite wisdom seems somewhat of a contradiction to me. When I hear a good answer as to why the wise men who wrote this freedom document only allowed a select group of people to actually exercise these rights, perhaps I'll understand this refusal to ever acknowledge that perhaps they weren't as "wise" as we're told.

I'm not certain if I understand you here. There is nothing exclusive about the second amendment, or the entire constitution... if that's what you mean by this freedom document. And we had a very bloody civil war to end slavery in short order, I don't think it was ever in Americas interest to include slavery in a country setup to promote freedom to all.

[Koda]

That's my point

If you avoid trouble, you probably will avoid trouble

And if you're flexible and just do a slightly different trip, that trip will end up being nice also.

If you say it's your right to do a particular trip, even though it makes "your spidey senses tingle", you are more likely to get into trouble.

If you bring a gun, I think statistics say that it is more likely you or someone in your party will get into trouble. But I'm not going to criticize anyone else for deciding otherwise. If you are well trained, lock up your gun,... then maybe the statistics don't really apply.

Jerry, I understand your sentiment but no situation is the same. The reality is trouble is decided by the criminal person, not yourself. With or without a gun. You can avoid trouble all you can.... until you run out of avoidance.

As far as statistics, they work both ways. IMO the statistic you referenced is not true, considering how many private guns are in America if that statistic were true it would be chaos.

[Crusak]

Take away the 2nd Amendment, and you'll soon lose your 1st Amendment rights... it'll all go downhill from there.

Well, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th have all, to some degree, been abolished in just the last few administrations. Seems "downhill" started some time ago (9/11?), despite the 2nd.

Things have changed so much Karl, you are 100% correct! And with the vigor that our "leaders" are trying to remove the rest of our rights (in the name of safety - it's for our own good you know) I fear for our country.