Well, I'm happy that a civil discussion has already started, but I'd like to clarify some things:
1. I put the text of 2A on my original post just for some context and actually hoped it would help us steer clear over what it states. In other words, I thought it would come up sooner or later in a hiking related discussion in this thread and having it up already would not put it up for debate. Hoo-boy was I wrong about that.
2. Discussion over Constitutional Law would be Idle Chatter, but I have hope that the first posts here can springboard this closer to hiking related discussion, and I enjoy reading the posts, so perhaps it will be helpful.
All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Owww! (Sound of tongue being bitten *hard*.)
Karl
Back on the trail, again...
Back on the trail, again...
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
It would be really fun if everyone that did not carry a gun wore a mask on the back of there head & everyone that did carry a gun did not!
Shoe Shine Boy Has Left The Building!
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Good idea Mayhem 
Call me naive, young, unamerican, whatever -- but to me it makes more sense to base our laws on what makes the most sense in the current era. Even better, let's plan ahead to prepare ourselves for an optimal future.
You can have a historical debate about what some people wrote down 220 years ago when the USA was young and the standard military weapon was a musket and every state had a militia or something. What does it have to do with today? Why not base our laws about guns on the best research we can produce, instead of extrapolating them from a practically ancient document? I'm not giving an opinion as to whether the 2nd amendment is good or not... you can make a good case either way. I just think the way we think about these things is not always very productive. I also tend to be more interested in the future than the past by nature so don't take it personally if I'm disinterested in history and you're passionate about it
Hikers carrying guns on trails: I don't really care either way. If someone wants to attack and kill me, they will probably be able to do so no matter the weapon, as I've never even been in a fight. I worry more about careless hunters who shoot hikers thinking they're bears or something (this actually happens). Personally I won't carry a gun because I don't see a need for it but if it's important to you, go for it...
Also, I am much more happy to share the trail with guns, dogs, and bikes than I am to share it with horses.
Call me naive, young, unamerican, whatever -- but to me it makes more sense to base our laws on what makes the most sense in the current era. Even better, let's plan ahead to prepare ourselves for an optimal future.
You can have a historical debate about what some people wrote down 220 years ago when the USA was young and the standard military weapon was a musket and every state had a militia or something. What does it have to do with today? Why not base our laws about guns on the best research we can produce, instead of extrapolating them from a practically ancient document? I'm not giving an opinion as to whether the 2nd amendment is good or not... you can make a good case either way. I just think the way we think about these things is not always very productive. I also tend to be more interested in the future than the past by nature so don't take it personally if I'm disinterested in history and you're passionate about it
Hikers carrying guns on trails: I don't really care either way. If someone wants to attack and kill me, they will probably be able to do so no matter the weapon, as I've never even been in a fight. I worry more about careless hunters who shoot hikers thinking they're bears or something (this actually happens). Personally I won't carry a gun because I don't see a need for it but if it's important to you, go for it...
Also, I am much more happy to share the trail with guns, dogs, and bikes than I am to share it with horses.
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Here's a story for you:
While solo backpacking in a remote part of Canyonlands the first week of April, I got caught in a rainstorm and wound up setting up camp on an elevated area off the trail. I was wet and tired, but didn't mind having a day with fewer miles hiked and more time to reexamine the ceiling of my tent.
The next morning I waited for the sun to come up and put my things on trees to dry as one does while they drink their coffee. A group of five hikers came up the trail and were headed in the same direction as me. I love meeting people in these kinds of situations because I'm naive and trust people and think people are mostly awesome with a few bad apples as the exception. These hikers gave me an icy hello and didn't take to my small talk. One gentleman made a comment about my lack of experience backpacking, one of those 'I'm older than you so I know more'-type comments. No big deal. I knew I'd leap frog them later in the morning after my things dried and I got hiking.
Two hours later and a few miles down the trail I saw the group again and attempted more friendly talk, only to be given cryptic responses about their "seeking solitude" and then was told "maybe we'll see your desiccated corpse in a few days." I took it as a poor attempt at making humor after the tiresome idea of me solo backpacking in the Maze and the dangers of it came up. Still, an odd comment and it made me hope to avoid these people in the future.
We were all at an intersection in a zone called The Fins, where water is scarce and trail options are limited by terrain. I watched as two of the men in the group polluted the water in a pothole by putting their oily fingers in it. Literature distributed by Canyonlands NP warns people not to do this as clean water is appreciated by hikers and the entire ecosystem in this desert. Most people know not to do it without being told. I took it as a mental note that these hikers were not very experienced, at least with respect to backcountry ethics.
Long part made short: I made a decision to backtrack due to safety concerns several hours later. I ended up back at the intersection where I'd last seen the five backpackers, as this had by far the best water for miles around (not only was it a trail intersection, it was the confluence of two dry washes, hence the water). Their packs were still there, but they were all elsewhere. I set up my camera to do a time-lapse and found a spot up away from the wash where it would be safe to camp. Hopefully. I found more potholes of water, which I knew would be uncontaminated.
Later on the five backpackers returned and were not happy to see that I was nearby. One of them lectured me on the importance of solitude and told me that I made their women feel unsafe. I thought this absurd since I was solo (solitude) and they were in a group. Also, I had no idea how the two women could be remotely threatened by me, as I'd been nothing but friendly and respectful. The guy told me to keep quiet and not disrupt their experience. I smiled and nodded a lot as not to escalate the situation. I figured they'd move to a spot far away from me (they had not set up camp) and I'd never see them again.
They set up camp right in the dry wash, not 100 feet down from the confluence. I'd see them all night.
This is when I started to worry a bit. I wished I had some sort of protection like a gun. Maybe they had a gun? Maybe all five of them had guns? Maybe they were just creepy religious fanatics and I had no reason to worry? Many thoughts went through my head that night.
The next morning I woke with the sun and quickly gathered my things. As I loaded my pack, I heard a report. My first thought was 'gunshot'. Then I thought maybe it was just a loud rockfall that sounded like a firing gun. There were canyons everywhere and sound could travel in strange ways.
I had to pass the Cranky Backpack Gang on my way out, so I wished them "Happy trails!" and quickly hiked on. One of the women in the group wished me well.
Several days later, after returning to Portland, I received a call from a ranger at Canyonlands. She asked where I'd been hiking and what days. I gave her the day-by-day account of where I'd been and she said it was because they were investigating something that happened in the Fins. I told her the dates I'd been in the Fins and she interrupted me to say, "Hang on, you need to talk to law enforcement so you don't have to repeat this." She patched me through to someone from the local law enforcement. He asked if I'd seen two men, one about 40 and the other about 65, who were from Arizona. I asked if they could have been part of a group of five and he said no. I told him those five were the only ones I'd seen in the Fins, but I'd seen other parties-- none matching the ages/gender he'd asked about-- while in Canyonlands. Then I said, "I'd like to just report the... reckless is too strong a word for it...activities of the party of five I'd seen." At this point I had no idea what he was investigating or anything. He took note of what I had to say about the Cranky Backpack Gang and said he'd call them and uninvite them from future visits to Canyonlands. I thought that a fair consequence and we said goodbye.
Then I got on the phone an googled news from Canyonlands. I found articles like this. [If you've read this much, take the time to read this article] This happened probably the day I'd heard the "gunshot". This happened about one mile from where I was at the time, although several more miles by trail. The "gunshot" did not sound like it was a mile away, but then again, sound does strange things in canyons.
I must admit that suspicions came to mind that maybe the Cranky Backpack Gang had something to do with this or knew something about it. But then I figured that the detectives would figure it all out and that I had no reason to suspect the CBG other than the fact that they were weird and unfriendly and inexperienced.
I followed the news articles (mostly from papers in Utah) about the case and articles like this one begain appearing, several with comments by people who knew the deceased well and could not believe what had happened.
A few weeks later the case appeared to be resolved. Double suicide.
The thing is, I wonder if the sound I heard was one of the suicide gunshots. How strange was the timing that the first time I wished I'd had a gun to protect myself I was right near where two lives were about to be lost by gunshot?
I never mentioned this in my Canyonlands TR because the case was still open to investigation. I trust in the detectives' work and commend the job done by those involved in the case.
While solo backpacking in a remote part of Canyonlands the first week of April, I got caught in a rainstorm and wound up setting up camp on an elevated area off the trail. I was wet and tired, but didn't mind having a day with fewer miles hiked and more time to reexamine the ceiling of my tent.
The next morning I waited for the sun to come up and put my things on trees to dry as one does while they drink their coffee. A group of five hikers came up the trail and were headed in the same direction as me. I love meeting people in these kinds of situations because I'm naive and trust people and think people are mostly awesome with a few bad apples as the exception. These hikers gave me an icy hello and didn't take to my small talk. One gentleman made a comment about my lack of experience backpacking, one of those 'I'm older than you so I know more'-type comments. No big deal. I knew I'd leap frog them later in the morning after my things dried and I got hiking.
Two hours later and a few miles down the trail I saw the group again and attempted more friendly talk, only to be given cryptic responses about their "seeking solitude" and then was told "maybe we'll see your desiccated corpse in a few days." I took it as a poor attempt at making humor after the tiresome idea of me solo backpacking in the Maze and the dangers of it came up. Still, an odd comment and it made me hope to avoid these people in the future.
We were all at an intersection in a zone called The Fins, where water is scarce and trail options are limited by terrain. I watched as two of the men in the group polluted the water in a pothole by putting their oily fingers in it. Literature distributed by Canyonlands NP warns people not to do this as clean water is appreciated by hikers and the entire ecosystem in this desert. Most people know not to do it without being told. I took it as a mental note that these hikers were not very experienced, at least with respect to backcountry ethics.
Long part made short: I made a decision to backtrack due to safety concerns several hours later. I ended up back at the intersection where I'd last seen the five backpackers, as this had by far the best water for miles around (not only was it a trail intersection, it was the confluence of two dry washes, hence the water). Their packs were still there, but they were all elsewhere. I set up my camera to do a time-lapse and found a spot up away from the wash where it would be safe to camp. Hopefully. I found more potholes of water, which I knew would be uncontaminated.
Later on the five backpackers returned and were not happy to see that I was nearby. One of them lectured me on the importance of solitude and told me that I made their women feel unsafe. I thought this absurd since I was solo (solitude) and they were in a group. Also, I had no idea how the two women could be remotely threatened by me, as I'd been nothing but friendly and respectful. The guy told me to keep quiet and not disrupt their experience. I smiled and nodded a lot as not to escalate the situation. I figured they'd move to a spot far away from me (they had not set up camp) and I'd never see them again.
They set up camp right in the dry wash, not 100 feet down from the confluence. I'd see them all night.
This is when I started to worry a bit. I wished I had some sort of protection like a gun. Maybe they had a gun? Maybe all five of them had guns? Maybe they were just creepy religious fanatics and I had no reason to worry? Many thoughts went through my head that night.
The next morning I woke with the sun and quickly gathered my things. As I loaded my pack, I heard a report. My first thought was 'gunshot'. Then I thought maybe it was just a loud rockfall that sounded like a firing gun. There were canyons everywhere and sound could travel in strange ways.
I had to pass the Cranky Backpack Gang on my way out, so I wished them "Happy trails!" and quickly hiked on. One of the women in the group wished me well.
Several days later, after returning to Portland, I received a call from a ranger at Canyonlands. She asked where I'd been hiking and what days. I gave her the day-by-day account of where I'd been and she said it was because they were investigating something that happened in the Fins. I told her the dates I'd been in the Fins and she interrupted me to say, "Hang on, you need to talk to law enforcement so you don't have to repeat this." She patched me through to someone from the local law enforcement. He asked if I'd seen two men, one about 40 and the other about 65, who were from Arizona. I asked if they could have been part of a group of five and he said no. I told him those five were the only ones I'd seen in the Fins, but I'd seen other parties-- none matching the ages/gender he'd asked about-- while in Canyonlands. Then I said, "I'd like to just report the... reckless is too strong a word for it...activities of the party of five I'd seen." At this point I had no idea what he was investigating or anything. He took note of what I had to say about the Cranky Backpack Gang and said he'd call them and uninvite them from future visits to Canyonlands. I thought that a fair consequence and we said goodbye.
Then I got on the phone an googled news from Canyonlands. I found articles like this. [If you've read this much, take the time to read this article] This happened probably the day I'd heard the "gunshot". This happened about one mile from where I was at the time, although several more miles by trail. The "gunshot" did not sound like it was a mile away, but then again, sound does strange things in canyons.
I must admit that suspicions came to mind that maybe the Cranky Backpack Gang had something to do with this or knew something about it. But then I figured that the detectives would figure it all out and that I had no reason to suspect the CBG other than the fact that they were weird and unfriendly and inexperienced.
I followed the news articles (mostly from papers in Utah) about the case and articles like this one begain appearing, several with comments by people who knew the deceased well and could not believe what had happened.
A few weeks later the case appeared to be resolved. Double suicide.
The thing is, I wonder if the sound I heard was one of the suicide gunshots. How strange was the timing that the first time I wished I'd had a gun to protect myself I was right near where two lives were about to be lost by gunshot?
I never mentioned this in my Canyonlands TR because the case was still open to investigation. I trust in the detectives' work and commend the job done by those involved in the case.
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
There is a saying that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.potato wrote: You can have a historical debate about what some people wrote down 220 years ago when the USA was young and the standard military weapon was a musket and every state had a militia or something. What does it have to do with today? Why not base our laws about guns on the best research we can produce, instead of extrapolating them from a practically ancient document?
What does a document written 220 years ago have to do with today? Well, it really wasn't that long ago that a million jews were persecuted and murdered under an oppressive government. Other countries have suffered genocide since then as well. There are still many other civil liberties that only recently in history been properly allowed. Are those rights worth fighting for? And on what level. Can it happen again? Here in America? Maybe as time goes on and all the worlds imperfections are worked out and we become a world of peace will personal ownership of military weapons really be reduced to competition shooting matches at established clubs ect. But really, how is anyone free at any time if they do not have the capability to stand up for their rights and resist oppression?
220 years ago was not that long compared to the time its been since history has been recorded. America is unique in that we are the only country in the world with a constitutional right that gives the power to its people to resist government oppression and have the ability to protect themselves from harm. I've heard arguments that the people are the militia, but however you read it its very clear "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Its been upheld by the supreme court.
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Chase, your story validates my fear of being so far from help in remote places. No cell service in many areas, and often times your blocked at the end of a dead end forest road if that's where a trailhead is at. The argument that if you had a gun could have made the situation worse is moot, had anything escalated to physical violence against you I doubt that you having a gun would have made it worse. The worst that could have happened is that you would have been assaulted and that would have happened with or with your gun. I'm glad you fared well.
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
One of the reasons why I enjoy really old books on wilderness survival is that they always seem to address the issue of "should I have a gun?" and "what kind of gun should I have?" Seems that the focus in these books is mostly on hunting, but also occasionally gets into protecting yourself from the two-legged predators. In one book I have the author calls handguns a "dude weapon" and suggests it would be better to carry a .22 rifle instead for collecting small game in a survival situation.
Anyone ever watch Episode 4, Season 2 of Survivorman where he used a rifle to kill a squirrel for food? It's not a bad idea in really remote areas to have that option. Ruger makes an awesome 10/22 Takedown Autoloading Rifle meant for survival situations.
Of course, for the types of trips we do here in the Northwest it's probably not very common that a rifle would come in handy or be necessary, given the weight and bulk.
More than once I've tried to explain my rationale for carrying a firearm. My reasons are pretty much the same on and off trail. I laugh every time I read or hear someone talk about how the addition of a gun to a situation suddenly makes everything more dangerous. I also laugh when someone suggests that a person with a gun is automatically looking for a fight, and itching to use it on someone. Believe me, anyone with THAT attitude ends up in prison rather quickly. Responsible folks get their freedom, and get to keep their guns. Idiots end up in prison. If a felon is caught with a firearm, it's a serious crime & they get arrested.
I'm not saying that firearms are not dangerous. Certainly if misused they're as dangerous as any other weapon.
I've had a CHL for over 8 yrs now, and carry often (in places where it is legal). I avoid open carry mainly as a personal choice, not wanting to cause alarm (give the tender nature of some people who get upset when they see someone with a firearm). I always follow safe procedures for every moment that one of my firearms is not locked away. It's never out of my possession and always under my control.
Over the past 18 years I've read a ton of history. One thing that really strikes me about our past is that is mirrors our present, and is a good predictor of our future. Do any of you trust your government 100%? Enough to completely surrender your lives and futures to it? If not, then maybe you might want to keep your Constitution intact, along with the Amendments. Take away the 2nd Amendment, and you'll soon lose your 1st Amendment rights... it'll all go downhill from there. History teaches us that. At least, that's how I see it.
Several books I've read on survival talk about using gun powder from bullets to start fires. There are some good instructions on doing so. I'd love to give it a try someday. I think that's something that Les Stroud tried in at least one of his episodes.
Anyone ever watch Episode 4, Season 2 of Survivorman where he used a rifle to kill a squirrel for food? It's not a bad idea in really remote areas to have that option. Ruger makes an awesome 10/22 Takedown Autoloading Rifle meant for survival situations.
Of course, for the types of trips we do here in the Northwest it's probably not very common that a rifle would come in handy or be necessary, given the weight and bulk.
More than once I've tried to explain my rationale for carrying a firearm. My reasons are pretty much the same on and off trail. I laugh every time I read or hear someone talk about how the addition of a gun to a situation suddenly makes everything more dangerous. I also laugh when someone suggests that a person with a gun is automatically looking for a fight, and itching to use it on someone. Believe me, anyone with THAT attitude ends up in prison rather quickly. Responsible folks get their freedom, and get to keep their guns. Idiots end up in prison. If a felon is caught with a firearm, it's a serious crime & they get arrested.
I'm not saying that firearms are not dangerous. Certainly if misused they're as dangerous as any other weapon.
I've had a CHL for over 8 yrs now, and carry often (in places where it is legal). I avoid open carry mainly as a personal choice, not wanting to cause alarm (give the tender nature of some people who get upset when they see someone with a firearm). I always follow safe procedures for every moment that one of my firearms is not locked away. It's never out of my possession and always under my control.
Over the past 18 years I've read a ton of history. One thing that really strikes me about our past is that is mirrors our present, and is a good predictor of our future. Do any of you trust your government 100%? Enough to completely surrender your lives and futures to it? If not, then maybe you might want to keep your Constitution intact, along with the Amendments. Take away the 2nd Amendment, and you'll soon lose your 1st Amendment rights... it'll all go downhill from there. History teaches us that. At least, that's how I see it.
Several books I've read on survival talk about using gun powder from bullets to start fires. There are some good instructions on doing so. I'd love to give it a try someday. I think that's something that Les Stroud tried in at least one of his episodes.
Last edited by Crusak on May 21st, 2013, 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Very strong argument. If I were keeping score as a neutral judge, I'd give your side a point on this one.Koda wrote:Chase, your story validates my fear of being so far from help in remote places. No cell service in many areas, and often times your blocked at the end of a dead end forest road if that's where a trailhead is at. The argument that if you had a gun could have made the situation worse is moot, had anything escalated to physical violence against you I doubt that you having a gun would have made it worse. The worst that could have happened is that you would have been assaulted and that would have happened with or with your gun. I'm glad you fared well.
Re: All Firearms Discussions in This Thread
Well, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th have all, to some degree, been abolished in just the last few administrations. Seems "downhill" started some time ago (9/11?), despite the 2nd.Crusak wrote:Take away the 2nd Amendment, and you'll soon lose your 1st Amendment rights... it'll all go downhill from there.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...
Back on the trail, again...