Call for input on Collawash River map

Use this forum to report and discuss trails in need of maintenance. This will help organizations like TKO and agencies like the Forest Service get the most recent on-the-ground trail conditions.
mkrochta
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by mkrochta » November 4th, 2014, 5:44 pm

mcds wrote:The 6 page Spotted Owl PDF does not contain the word 'road'

One more simple question, can you look up the day/month/year of the photo you posted? If not, the if you post a link to the original image file, the exif data probably has the date and I could look it up there.

Image
Thank you for pointing that out mcds. And thanks for taking a look at the map. I really encourage folks to read into the research on roads in forests. Like I said, the effects are well agreed upon and numerous. Likewise, some roads are more benign, and valuable to access we enjoy.

The date of the photo was either 2/13/2014 or the next day, taken from 2 Rivers campground I believe.

Thanks again for the map ideas.

mcds
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by mcds » November 4th, 2014, 5:46 pm

Koda wrote: I cant imagine how an owl would be fragmented by a road, let alone a seldom used tertiary road?
Conceivably, roads could create a 'forest edge', which would be habitat for barred owls. Freeways probably do, but hard to see how forest road could. But if forest roads did, then their ubiquity would seem to warrant a mention in the 6 page PDF.

mkrochta
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by mkrochta » November 4th, 2014, 5:56 pm

Koda wrote:
mkrochta wrote:I'm going to try to get to some of Koda's questions soon, but now and for the next couple days I have to sign-off and get back to the forest.
mkrochta,Thank you again for the replies. I realize any reply is voluntary on your part so any dialog is appreciated.


Mcds sparked another question, I cant imagine how an owl would be fragmented by a road, let alone a seldom used tertiary road?
Roads impact owls through noise effects on more frequented roads, and in other places increased exposure to predation from species that are more tolerant of open, roaded areas, like Barred owls. Spotted owls avoid these areas, and in doing so their dispersal & foraging patches are effectively decreased.

Sorry for not providing more detail/links, but I'm confident folks can follow up if you're interested in other species (and other elements of forest ) possibly affected by roads. But now I gotta run.

Thanks for keeping up the discussion!

mcds
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by mcds » November 4th, 2014, 9:40 pm

First, let me say, mkrochta, that I'm on your side more or less and I am certainly not arguing against the project of removing the red roads. I am proponent of increasing roadless areas and wilderness areas. As I explained in detail in another post, we all ought to be proponents of removing roads, pulling back trailheads, and expanding wilderness. We benefit from it by gaining access to more roadless/wilderness area. Even hunters benefit. It's counter intuitive, but that is the way the geometry plays out, on average. Anyway, that's for another thread. But I am questioning some of the rationale being put forth; I question the relevancy of fragmentation.

And about the photo ...
mkrochta wrote:
Image

The date of the photo was either 2/13/2014 or the next day, taken from 2 Rivers campground I believe.
Well, that was the date that eastbound I84 was closed due to a massive rock slide, caused by a spell of deep cold that was followed by unusual warming. Here is Salem's temperature, rainfall, and cloud cover for the lead-up week:

Image

For weather news from that week, here is a google search ...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=we ... oregonlive

... which returns headlines like "Tracking Oregon's 2014 winter snow storm (Day 5: The 'Big Thaw')" "Welcome to Day 5 of our coverage of the 2014 winter snow storm that has smothered Portland, the Willamette Valley, the Oregon coast, Southwest Washington and the Columbia River Gorge with snow and, now, ice. As the region begins to thaw out Monday -- temperatures are expected to reach the low 40s -- the focus now shifts to potential flooding concerns and clearing area roads of snow and ice."

In the photo you posted, it looks like the Clackamas is in flood stage, and the lead-up weather supports that. I'd the expect the Collawash River was in flood stage too. It's a dramatic photo of the confluence, but knowing what was happening weatherwise, I don't give the drama much import. Using that photo borders on propaganda in my opinion - and I'm on your side regarding the endpoint of closing the red roads! I am not saying that it is not like that everyday. It may be just an unfortunate coincident of timing. Do you have other photos from other days?

raven
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by raven » November 4th, 2014, 10:29 pm

mcds:
In the photo you posted, it looks like the Clackamas is in flood stage, and the lead-up weather supports that. I'd the expect the Collawash River was in flood stage too.
The picture (posted by mkrochta) shows an apples-to-apples comparison of runoff. It does not get better than that. When sedimentation rates increase, the Collawash has the higher load. Proves the point about sedimentation, IMO.

raven
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by raven » November 4th, 2014, 11:14 pm

Three notes on fragmentation from my personal experiences.

(1) From casual observation of vegetation, cropping patterns seem to differ right beside trails and 100' or so off trail, implying trails impact animal feeding patterns.

(2) When I have compared mid-summer temperatures and humidities approaching clearcuts by bushwhacking (while maintaining a constant elevation) I've noticed drying and temperature effects starting at a quarter to an eighth of a mile from the edge of the clearcuts. Same notes when approaching roads, but the effects have been more localized, starting neare the roads than clearcuts. Anecdotal comment; no careful measurements done.

(3) Hiking along trail in the Adirondacks routed for a mile or so along a narrow jeep road partly covered by deciduous tree limbs, I passed a large great horned owl on one of the limbs. After I was 1-200 feet past it, it took flight along the road in my direction, its wings hitting branches and knocking some down, before it came to an opening large enough to climb out of the heavy forest or fly out over a lake. (I don't remember which.) The presence of the road opened hunting country for the owl that would have been inaccessible otherwise. I think the story is evidence of the potential impact on spotted owls of roads, since roads offer better hunting terrain for barred owls.

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kepPNW
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by kepPNW » November 5th, 2014, 6:09 am

raven wrote:
mcds wrote:In the photo you posted, it looks like the Clackamas is in flood stage, and the lead-up weather supports that. I'd the expect the Collawash River was in flood stage too.
The picture (posted by mkrochta) shows an apples-to-apples comparison of runoff. It does not get better than that. When sedimentation rates increase, the Collawash has the higher load. Proves the point about sedimentation, IMO.
I was hiking along the Clackamas, near Pup Creek Falls, four days after that photo. That river was indeed raging then, and we encountered numerous landslides. Not sure that photo supports a higher average sedimentation load, any more than it suggests a nearby and recent point event. Especially given the crazy weather that week.
  • Image
    One of two large landslides a bit upstream from Fish Creek Campground, 2/17/2014.
Great discussion! I've really been enjoying this thread.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

(Photos · PortlandHikers)

raven
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by raven » November 5th, 2014, 8:53 am

Average sedimentation rates are determined by many individual events. At low flows little sediment is carried; at high flows stuff is knocked loose that would not be at lower flows. When a valley is stable, moderate to heavy rains will cause little sediment to be removed. When a valley is destabilized by logging or roads or fires, it does not take much.

The trail photo illustrates the destabilizing effects of trails. Roads are worse.

So yes, a point event. That's the point.

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Koda
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by Koda » November 5th, 2014, 9:32 am

If I understand this correct, essentially a Spotted Owl would have to fly miles (length of forest road) out of his way to avoid crossing the open airspace (lacking canopy for cover) of a forest road in order to avoid being hunted by the Barred owl or other predators. Since the Spotted Owl doesn't understand this, his numbers decline because he either instinctively does not cross any open airspace and thus overcrowds his current habitat or he does cross and gets predated at higher numbers along stretched of forest spur roads.... ?
Something tells me there isn't going to be an easy solution.

I’m still curious to alternate road management systems I previously mentioned (on page 4 )other than just simply decommissioning them.
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

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Koda
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Re: Call for input on Collawash River map

Post by Koda » November 5th, 2014, 9:40 am

kepPNW wrote:Not sure that photo supports a higher average sedimentation load, any more than it suggests a nearby and recent point event. Especially given the crazy weather that week.
I agree, how is the annual sediment in the Collawash any different than it would be if no forest roads had been built? Are 'that many' tertiary forest roads that cross streams washing out annually each winter?
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

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