Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

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Charley
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Charley » May 14th, 2018, 12:34 pm

Great. Thanks for making sure you can rent public property and keep the public off of it for the best months of the year. Congratulations. Your money has won you the right not to have to see other citizens enjoying, heaven forbid, the Columbia River.

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Dustin DuBois
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Dustin DuBois » May 14th, 2018, 12:38 pm

Charley wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:34 pm
Great. Thanks for making sure you can rent public property and keep the public off of it for the best months of the year. Congratulations. Your money has won you the right not to have to see other citizens enjoying, heaven forbid, the Columbia River.
This place has had the same rules for decades. All I'm doing is asking that people show some respect. You might try it.

There are more than enough places to enjoy the river during those 5 months. It's a huge river. If you don't like the policy, the contact information is on the CRGNSA FS site.
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Charley
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Charley » May 14th, 2018, 12:47 pm

Dustin DuBois wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:38 pm
This place has had the same rules for decades. All I'm doing is asking that people show some respect. You might try it.
Respect: I've never even been there, much less offended your exclusive private camping event by walking through this portion of my National Forest. So... respect what?

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Dustin DuBois
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Dustin DuBois » May 14th, 2018, 12:59 pm

Charley wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:47 pm
Dustin DuBois wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:38 pm
This place has had the same rules for decades. All I'm doing is asking that people show some respect. You might try it.
Respect: I've never even been there, much less offended your exclusive private camping event by walking through this portion of my National Forest. So... respect what?
So, why do you care? What's the point in mockingly calling it a private camping event? That's precisely what it is. Any time people pay for privacy, that's what is expected.

Educate yourself with that Wikipedia link I shared. It's a National Scenic Area, not just standard National Forest. There are more regulations in these small specific areas, so the government has more say than you give them credit for. This has been a National Scenic Area since 1986. You've had time to learn, understand, and vote about it.
------

I didn't make these regulations. I have no say over the campground.

Your initial post is criticizing me for asking for nothing more than what is due for the people who paid. I didn't ask the CRGNSA to do anything but clarify a point for me.

So, I'm asking "people" to show some respect to the regulations (or at least complain to the proper channels).

And you specifically, I'm asking to show more respect to someone who is doing nothing wrong. If you don't agree with me, try being a grown up. I've hiked with you, I know you're an adult.
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Guy
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Guy » May 14th, 2018, 12:59 pm

I have contacted Diana Campos for clarification, it's not that I want to crash Dustin's camping weekend but I do want to know under what authority they can do this.

I mean, just because they say it doesn't make it legal. Look at the North West Forest Pass ;)
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Water
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Water » May 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm

'should not go there' sounds like they share your understanding/traditional experience of the place moreso than a codified rule.

the reasons for privacy however are pretty crappy to me when it comes to public land. Where's the benefit for those of us who rent lookout towers and want privacy? I'd prefer there's no 'assumptions of 'privacy' on any public lands, beyond what is afforded to you being in your tent or if you've rented a pavilion, someone else is not having a picnic in it at the same time, or during the buffer periods (of indeterminable length).
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Dustin DuBois
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Dustin DuBois » May 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm

Guy wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:59 pm
I have contacted Diana Campos for clarification, it's not that I want to crash Dustin's camping weekend but I do what to know under what authority they can do this.

I mean, just because they say it doesn't make it legal. I mean, look at the North West Forest Pass ;)
See the wiki link on National Scenic Areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ed_States)
Wiki wrote:A National Scenic Area in the United States is a federally designated area of outstanding natural and scenic value that receives a level of protection that is less stringent than wilderness designation. Scenic areas are typically occupied or used in some manner by people and either cannot be considered for wilderness designation, or are seen as suitable for a wider range of uses than those permitted under wilderness designation.
Wiki wrote:The Columbia River Gorge was in a region of outstanding natural beauty that was already heavily used by people. The designation of the Columbia Gorge was controversial, as it imposed a significant amount of federal control on public and private lands that had previously not been significantly regulated.
Controversial, but it was enacted.

Water wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm
'should not go there' sounds like they share your understanding/traditional experience of the place moreso than a codified rule.

the reasons for privacy however are pretty crappy to me when it comes to public land. Where's the benefit for those of us who rent lookout towers and want privacy? I'd prefer there's no 'assumptions of 'privacy' on any public lands, beyond what is afforded to you being in your tent or if you've rented a pavilion, someone else is not having a picnic in it at the same time, or during the buffer periods (of indeterminable length).
It also sounds like you may be trying to interpret their rather clear message in a way that suits your understanding/traditional experience of "public land" (which this land is less-so).

There are places where you can rent a beach house, and people aren't even allowed to walk on your patch of sand.

Not liking a rule doesn't mean it's open to interpretation. It means it's open for you to dispute, but remains a rule until changed.
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Guy
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Guy » May 14th, 2018, 1:08 pm

Dustin DuBois wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm
Guy wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:59 pm
I have contacted Diana Campos for clarification, it's not that I want to crash Dustin's camping weekend but I do what to know under what authority they can do this.

I mean, just because they say it doesn't make it legal. I mean, look at the North West Forest Pass ;)
See the wiki link on National Scenic Areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ed_States)
Yes I saw that Dustin but nowhere does that link say this gives the USFS the power to keep people out of public areas especially those of historic interest for the benefit of others who have paid them money to enjoy them privately.
hiking log & photos.
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Dustin DuBois
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by Dustin DuBois » May 14th, 2018, 1:09 pm

Guy wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 1:08 pm
Dustin DuBois wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 1:02 pm
Guy wrote:
May 14th, 2018, 12:59 pm
I have contacted Diana Campos for clarification, it's not that I want to crash Dustin's camping weekend but I do what to know under what authority they can do this.

I mean, just because they say it doesn't make it legal. I mean, look at the North West Forest Pass ;)
See the wiki link on National Scenic Areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ed_States)
Yes I saw that Dustin but nowhere does that link say this gives the USFS the power to keep people out of public areas especially those of historic interest for the benefit of others who have paid them money to enjoy them privately.
It does redefine it as a National Scenic Area, and not just "public land".


And from here:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/main/crgnsa/about-forest
Designated by the Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area Act, the National Scenic Area is not a wilderness or park, but a 292,500 acre patchwork of public and private lands managed by the USDA Forest Service and it's partner, the Columbia River Gorge Commission.

The Forest Service is a federal land management agency with a mission to sustain the nation's forests and grasslands. In addition to National Forests, the agency conducts world-class research and manages various scenic and recreational sites for future generations, in service of "the greatest good." The Forest Service manages all National Forest System lands within the boundaries of the Scenic Area, administers recreation facilities on those lands, assists in resource protection programs, and provides technical assistance to help counties manage their land use.
And here:
http://www.gorgecommission.org/scenic-a ... uthorities
The Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area Act (the "Act"), 16 U.S.C. §§ 544–544p, created the National Scenic Area, authorized the states to enter into a compact creating the Gorge Commission, required the CRGC and U.S. Forest Service to adopt a regional management plan, and required counties to adopt land use ordinances consistent with the management plan. The Act specifically designated "special management areas," for which the U.S. Forest Service is the principal policy agency, and “urban areas” which are exempt from the land use regulations in the regional management plan. The remaining land has no title in the Act, but is commonly referred to as "general management area"; the Gorge Commission is the principal policy agency for the general management area.
And here:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-cong ... -bill/5705
Passed House amended (10/16/1986)
(Measure passed House, amended, roll call #482 (290-91))
Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area Act - Establishes the Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area in Washington and Oregon. Designates special management and urban areas within such scenic area. Permits minor revisions in such areas, as specified. ... (more at the link, this one's long)



I think that about covers it.
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retired jerry
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Re: Eagle Creek Overlook Hike

Post by retired jerry » May 14th, 2018, 1:30 pm

I'm just trolling here:

"When the Eagle Creek Overlook group site is occupied, the public should not go in there or around that area."

Is there a regulation or is she just saying it would be nice if people didn't go there?

Is there a sign saying not to enter?

Me - I don't care about any of that. If my presence is annoying, I will go somewhere else even if it's not illegal.

As long as I'm trolling here, the NW Forest Pass is legal. People misrepresent legal rulings. If a trailhead has a toilet, picnic table, and garbage can they can charge. It has to be for just the area around those facilities, you can't require the pass over a long stretch of highway just because there's those facilities at one spot.

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