what to expect from SAR

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Lurch
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by Lurch » March 29th, 2017, 9:37 am

retired jerry wrote:Nice map

Maybe it should extend to the Angel's Rest Trailhead because that's so popular

Maybe identify where Multnomah Falls is, and the lodge/parking area - you have a "P" there but it's not obvious which one
If I extended to Angels Rest than I would lose Horsetail, Since Angels has no real junctions along the route I figured that was fairly safe. The original map was designed square for the bandana print I referenced earlier. I would love to have more labels in there, but it gets cluttered (especially around Multnomah) so I went with a couple key points, and the list of trails/names, although you're correct that Multnomah Falls isn't mentioned on there at all.
retired jerry wrote:Can I stick it in the field guide?
Sure, you're welcome to stick it up wherever! Preferably don't go through the effort of photoshopping out attribution
retired jerry wrote:That is confusing, especially all the Foxgloves and so forth. Maybe they should have more signs pointing back to where Multnomah Falls is
I'm not sure that more signs would help. At least not with whatever "system" is currently being used. You've got a "box" that the foxgloves make, with ultimately confuses people when they hit multiple junctions, and have different signs pointing different directions, for the same landmark.

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kepPNW
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by kepPNW » March 29th, 2017, 10:25 am

Lurch wrote:I'm not saying that there should be no trail guides or information online.
To be absolutely clear, I wasn't suggesting that was your position. I was more intrigued by the reference to verbal trail descriptions, which I find terribly difficult to follow myself. And the FG (in the style of an ancient Don & Roberta Lowe book) is rife with them. Often with no map at all, or one that's not very detailed and/or scaled such that it might even be useful.
Lurch wrote:We've had multiple people this year alone, get confused and turned around in the foxgloves, and either hopelessly lost, or popping out in entirely unexpected locations attempting to follow FG directions.
Yep, that was the focus of my comments.
Lurch wrote:Don't even get me started on that freebie map handed out at the lodge! :evil: In fact, I got so pissed off with it that I made my own map
:lol: Well done! (But what about the Bermuda Triangle? ;))
Karl
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Lurch
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by Lurch » March 29th, 2017, 11:13 am

kepPNW wrote::lol: Well done! (But what about the Bermuda Triangle? ;))
We do like to call the Wahkeena / Vista Pt 420/419 loop the "Wahkeena Vortex"... you'd be surprised how many people over the years have done multiple laps around that trying to find their way out... And oddly enough trail signs with 420 burned in them tend to get stolen a lot.

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kepPNW
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by kepPNW » March 29th, 2017, 11:21 am

Lurch wrote:
kepPNW wrote::lol: Well done! (But what about the Bermuda Triangle? ;))
We do like to call the Wahkeena / Vista Pt 420/419 loop the "Wahkeena Vortex"... you'd be surprised how many people over the years have done multiple laps around that trying to find their way out...
Ha! I was actually thinking of the Basin, but yeah... I could see that, too. :)
Lurch wrote:And oddly enough trail signs with 420 burned in them tend to get stolen a lot.
No! :lol:

This is how Colorado finally dealt with that:
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squidvicious
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by squidvicious » March 29th, 2017, 7:09 pm

When I was at Multnomah the other day there was a blow-up of the "Hiking Loops" map posted in the plaza area, but this one had the Foxgloves added in (marked as unofficial). I'd never seen that version before. Is that what they're handing out now? The one I find to download is still the old one. That makes it look like the trail stops at Devil's Rest (and giving it a name leads to the wild assumption that it's some kind of feature you will actually be able to tell when you've reached), leading to people walking straight past and off the map. Seems safer to at least acknowledge those trails exist and give and idea where you might wind up.

Lurch, I really like your map, and I'll probably carry a copy(s) with me for all the people who stop to ask me (miles in and past multiple junctions) "where does this trail go?" But it appeals to me because it's actually geared to hikers. The one they hand out at the visitor's center is geared to tourists who just want to know "Where are the waterfalls and stuff?" Most of them would look at that map, get confused, and toss it in the trash as they headed up the trail.

Personally I'd like something in the middle--a tourist map, sure, but one that makes a point of noting that nature is not a disney-curated attraction. Here are the tourist attractions, but if you decide to visit them you will, in fact, be hiking. Which involves certain very real hazards and requires certain preparation. Mother Nature can be a bitch, so show some respect.

Just changing "map not to scale" from a tiny footnote to big clear letters across the top would go a huge way to improving that freebie map. And removing things like the monument viewpoint.

Lurch
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by Lurch » March 30th, 2017, 8:26 am

Thanks! It may be that I've stared at topo maps for so long that it there's just some odd comfort in seeing familiar routes, but the other "map" has always felt off to me, in just about every way imaginable. I think the tourist / disneyland factor is pretty prevalent, and a good portion of missions recently have been from out of state visitors. Oddly, commonly Texas and Florida? I literally had a guy come running out of the woods, in the snow, coming out the top of Larch Mtn on Tr 424, after getting turned around attempting to follow that map for the Multnomah / Wahkeena loop. And he had actually talked with one of the lodge people who helpfully highlighted his "route" and sent him on his way. We just happened to be training in the area, and he ran straight into a team fully decked out and branded with SAR, and thought we were there for him. In reality, he was in PDX on business, and went on a day hike, it probably would have taken a day or two before anyone even reported him missing, let alone where he might have been :shock: That was the first time he'd ever actually seen snow, and it was not a pleasant experience.

Like I said above, the square block of map up there was done as a bandana print for our members and as a fundraiser, since most people are packing a bandana anyways, might as well have one with a map printed on it (that's also one of the reasons I kept it single color). You're more than welcome to print and hand out as many of those as you want. I'd recommend laser printing, since it won't bleed if it gets wet, or if you really want to go bombproof I would highly recommend a product called Revlar made by Relyco. It needs to be run through a laser printer, but this stuff is as bombproof and waterproof as you'd want. It's expensive, at about $0.60 / sheet for normal paper, but I believe you can request samples and they'll send you a couple sheets. I prefer it over the greasy oily feel of rite-in-the-rain. I've got mini half-sheet topo map sets printed on this stuff.

Mildly shameless plug, if anyone's interested in a bandana I can try and figure out the best way to do that. We don't currently sell them online, since that's a hassle with shipping and everything but might be able to make arrangements. We will be doing a large annual SAR "Multnomah Falls Cleanup" event in the next month where they'll be available as well.

squidvicious
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by squidvicious » March 30th, 2017, 10:41 am

Lurch wrote:And he had actually talked with one of the lodge people who helpfully highlighted his "route" and sent him on his way.
Wow. I had assumed that one of the functions of those info center folks was to inform people of trail conditions, general safety info, and to maybe help people think about whether their expectations and abilities are realistic. It actually sounds like they're a big part of the problem. Sending your average tourist around that route even under current conditions with no warning seems like a huge liability issue, and I'm shocked they're not concerned about that.

Sounds like some kind of training between SAR volunteers and the Friends of Multnomah Falls volunteers could be useful. Maybe a seminar called "How Not to Get People Killed" or something.

Lurch
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Re: what to expect from SAR

Post by Lurch » March 30th, 2017, 1:19 pm

To be fair, that was a couple years back, not recently. Just an example of how dramatically wrong those maps have been read

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