SAR and geolocation

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jdemott
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SAR and geolocation

Post by jdemott » March 28th, 2022, 2:37 pm

Recently, I read an article discussing a proprietary geolocation system called what3words. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/03/28 ... ikers-life Basically, the system is based on the idea that it is easier for most people to say and remember a few words rather than a string of numbers for gps coordinates. So the idea is that a caller to 911 would just have to say three words to uniquely identify any location on earth. Apparently the system is now being used by hundreds of 911 systems.

This got me wondering about what geolocation systems are now being used by our local 911 and SAR providers. My only experience calling 911 was a number of years ago when I encountered an individual having a serious mental health crisis. I recall that it was rather frustrating to try to describe my location to the 911 operator since I was on foot and not near a street address.

Is there anyone here on the forums who knows about these questions?

1. If I call 911, will they know where I am located or do I have to be prepared to tell them? That is, do the local systems all use something like Rapid SOS which I think will automatically identify the location of a smartphone?
2. Should I report my location in degrees, minutes and seconds, as my iPhone reports it? Or are the decimal coordinates found in Gaia GPS preferred? Or is there a reason to have what3words?
3. Can I text message to 911 and will that generate a location identifier?

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Charley
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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by Charley » March 28th, 2022, 5:38 pm

jdemott wrote:
March 28th, 2022, 2:37 pm
My only experience calling 911 was a number of years ago when I encountered an individual having a serious mental health crisis.
Is that normal?

How am I living my life so poorly that I end up calling 911 so much more frequently?
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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adamschneider
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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by adamschneider » March 28th, 2022, 6:18 pm

Charley wrote:
March 28th, 2022, 5:38 pm
jdemott wrote:
March 28th, 2022, 2:37 pm
My only experience calling 911 was a number of years ago when I encountered an individual having a serious mental health crisis.
Is that normal? How am I living my life so poorly that I end up calling 911 so much more frequently?
I think my only 911 experience is that I've called from mountaintops to report fires a few times. It can be an adventure trying to find the right agency to talk to:
"What's your address?"
"I'm on top of Noble Knob."
"You're where?"
"It's a mountain."
"Are you in Pierce County?"
"Yes, but the fire I see is in Yakima County. Or maybe Kittitas."

(I always find out later that I wasn't telling them anything they didn't know, but I'd feel terrible if I was the only one who saw smoke and didn't call. I don't want to Kitty Genovese the forest.)

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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by Lurch » March 30th, 2022, 9:42 am

jdemott wrote:
March 28th, 2022, 2:37 pm
Recently, I read an article discussing a proprietary geolocation system called what3words. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/03/28 ... ikers-life Basically, the system is based on the idea that it is easier for most people to say and remember a few words rather than a string of numbers for gps coordinates. So the idea is that a caller to 911 would just have to say three words to uniquely identify any location on earth. Apparently the system is now being used by hundreds of 911 systems.

This got me wondering about what geolocation systems are now being used by our local 911 and SAR providers. My only experience calling 911 was a number of years ago when I encountered an individual having a serious mental health crisis. I recall that it was rather frustrating to try to describe my location to the 911 operator since I was on foot and not near a street address.

1. If I call 911, will they know where I am located or do I have to be prepared to tell them? That is, do the local systems all use something like Rapid SOS which I think will automatically identify the location of a smartphone?
2. Should I report my location in degrees, minutes and seconds, as my iPhone reports it? Or are the decimal coordinates found in Gaia GPS preferred? Or is there a reason to have what3words?
3. Can I text message to 911 and will that generate a location identifier?
So far as I know, we haven't had any rescues in the region utilizing the 3 words. It would probably be a 50/50 shot if anyone knew what you were referring to if you tried to do that via 911
1. If I call 911, will they know where I am located or do I have to be prepared to tell them? That is, do the local systems all use something like Rapid SOS which I think will automatically identify the location of a smartphone?
You should always be prepared to tell them, or at least a general idea. The problem is they have a hard time dispatching resources to a generic 'area'.

Generally speaking, and things are always kind of updating, 911 will have a 'phase 1' ping when you call in. That is going to usually default to being the address of the cell tower you are connected to. That obviously doesn't help a whole lot, especially somewhere like the gorge where you're likely connecting to a tower in a different state, and thus being sent to 911 that isn't able to task resources to help you, which will result in you getting transferred and so on...

If the operator is familiar with lost persons calls, they'll wait until a 'phase 2' ping is available, assuming the 911 you've called is capable (I believe most around here are) your phone will be sending coordinates in the back end, but it takes a few seconds to be able to do that so it can get a GPS lock and send the data, and I believe the operator needs to essentially refresh to pull that data into their system. Those coordinates will generally come in in Lat Long, WGS84, in degrees decimal(degrees minutes seconds will confuse people).
2. Should I report my location in degrees, minutes and seconds, as my iPhone reports it? Or are the decimal coordinates found in Gaia GPS preferred? Or is there a reason to have what3words?
Again, Degrees decimal is the default format for cell pings, and what most MDT's in patrol cars and such are going to use. Generally actual field operations for SAR in the region are going to be run on UTM's, with the WGS84 map datum, but a 911 operator likely isn't going to be familiar with that format and would be more comfortable with LL.
3. Can I text message to 911 and will that generate a location identifier?
YES you can text 911, (again, a little dependent on where you are, not all are capable of receiving text still). This is actually a good option when service is spotty and batteries are low. Data transfers take much less power, and don't have the same signal requirements that voice communication has. To be honest though I'm not sure if they carry location data, so if you're able to, sending that would be beneficial. You will likely be called by a SAR Coordinator from their cellphone who can receive text. Depending on the settings of your phone, photos or landmarks, and/or with location data have been a useful data point as well.

We get cell coordinates regularly during missions as a result of those phase 2 pings from the caller. There are additional longer term resources we can tap for missing persons who have NOT called, that can look at cellular traffic in general, and triangulate off tower connections, judge distance based on latency, and other factors. They're usually decent at providing a rough location, although there are still many places with no service, and sometimes they're wildly off, or too vague to be helpful.

IF you're knowledgeable enough to pull your own coordinates, that's helpful. If you can briefly describe the route you took, or planned to take, and what trailhead you started from, or if you happen to actually know where you are or have any legitimate landmarks, it's all helpful.

The most important thing, is we need a place to start... It's frustrating, and painful to have family call in that X person went hiking and they haven't come back, and have NO idea where they are other than some vague area like "In the gorge, or maybe on Mt Hood?" that covers a few hundred square miles and hundreds of trailheads. There's times we can't even start with details that fuzzy...

Random example of a win, we've identified the trail someone was hiking based on land features in the river in a selfie they'd posted to Instagram earlier in the day.

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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by Webfoot » March 30th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Lurch wrote:
March 30th, 2022, 9:42 am
The most important thing, is we need a place to start... It's frustrating, and painful to have family call in that X person went hiking and they haven't come back, and have NO idea where they are other than some vague area like "In the gorge, or maybe on Mt Hood?"
Is there a system or procedure to check trailheads for a specific license plate number—maybe a public BOLO like an Amber Alert? It's the only way I can see to approach that.

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Charley
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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by Charley » March 30th, 2022, 1:07 pm

Lurch wrote:
March 30th, 2022, 9:42 am
So far as I know, we haven't had any rescues in the region utilizing the 3 words. It would probably be a 50/50 shot if anyone knew what you were referring to if you tried to do that via 911
...
Generally speaking, and things are always kind of updating...

If the operator is familiar with lost persons calls...

but a 911 operator likely isn't going to be familiar with that format and would be more comfortable with LL. ...

YES you can text 911, (again, a little dependent on where you are, not all are capable of receiving text still). ...

and sometimes they're wildly off, or too vague to be helpful. ...

IF you're knowledgeable enough to pull your own coordinates, that's helpful. If you can briefly describe the route you took, or planned to take, and what trailhead you started from, or if you happen to actually know where you are or have any legitimate landmarks, it's all helpful.
...
The most important thing, is we need a place to start... ail someone was hiking based on land features in the river in a selfie they'd posted to Instagram earlier in the day.
Wow. That's a lot! Thank you for explaining.

I have come to regard verbal expressions of uncertainty, nuance, and exceptions as being true indicators of knowledge and expertise, because simple, authoritative statements are often incomplete, ideologically framed, or just wrong.

On the other hand, I do appreciate that the oldest, simplest advice (tell someone where you're going and when to call for rescue) is the best advice, because it doesn't depend on cellphone tower location, "ping" technology updates, 911 operator expertise, user competency, or user cellphone battery status. It's interesting stuff, to be sure, but memorizing the details and putting them into effective use in an emergency is probably beyond most hikers. Doing so is probably quite beyond the hikers most likely to get themselves lost. Which is why we are lucky to have professional rescuers and highly trained volunteer rescuers!

This is why I love this forum.

I've only ever called an authority one time: on a high mileage, off-trail peakbagging trip in Mt Rainier NP. I had to call because we ran into terrain that I didn't feel comfortable down-climbing unroped, which necessitated a long detour (which ended up being stressful, as well). I called the ranger office and told them we'd be late, our current route plan, and where we'd stay, if cliffed out and benighted, based on named features. When we finally hiked out (it was 11pm, in mid-November), we stopped by the hotel to call the rangers, as well as my emergency contact.

It was all so embarrassing and stressful that it changed how I plan climbing trips. I collect way more beta, make way more detailed maps, and generally have more conservative goals. Hiking at night is great. Climbing or descending at night is not cool.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

Lurch
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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by Lurch » March 30th, 2022, 3:26 pm

Webfoot wrote:
March 30th, 2022, 12:46 pm
Lurch wrote:
March 30th, 2022, 9:42 am
The most important thing, is we need a place to start... It's frustrating, and painful to have family call in that X person went hiking and they haven't come back, and have NO idea where they are other than some vague area like "In the gorge, or maybe on Mt Hood?"
Is there a system or procedure to check trailheads for a specific license plate number—maybe a public BOLO like an Amber Alert? It's the only way I can see to approach that.
In the gorge we can cover trailheads fairly quickly. Mt Hood is a different beast altogether though, especially if it's as vague as "Mt Hood". Sometimes it does come down to the community and family driving the roads to check possibilities, and there have been times where that has delayed searches by days, or indefinitely. Again though, that depends on the information we're given. For a long time, vehicles at trailheads were vital and common in establishing a last known position, and a starting point. More and more people are less comfortable leaving vehicles at trailheads (and for good reason). Sometimes people get rides, sometimes they take the shuttles, or some other means of transportation. There may or may not be a record of that, that the family may or may not have access to.

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jdemott
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Re: SAR and geolocation

Post by jdemott » March 30th, 2022, 7:37 pm

Thanks so much for a really thorough reply. It's very helpful to know what SAR and 911 know and don't know, and what they need to know. I always try to keep myself aware of where I am, where I've been, and where I'm going. But of course, the time you need help is often the time that your sense of direction has failed.

Most of all, thanks to all the hard-working folks who respond when a call comes in.

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