First Aid Kit

Ask questions and share your experiences with hiking & backpacking gear, and share trail recipes and gadget tips. Please see classifieds forum for buying/selling stuff.
Aimless
Posts: 1922
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:02 pm
Location: Lake Oswego

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Aimless » April 18th, 2016, 9:54 pm

OK, I looked at a summary of the 2015 recommendations and it is not precisely as I was taught in 2012:
Key points from the 2015 Guidelines Update provides bystanders, dispatchers and communities with practical guidance to improve the effectiveness of their teamwork:

•Untrained bystanders should still call 911 and provide Hands-Only CPR, or CPR without breaths, pushing hard and fast in the center of the chest to the rate of 100-120 compressions per minute. However, if the bystander is trained in CPR and can perform breaths, he or she should add breaths in a 30:2 compressions-to-breaths ratio.
The emphasis on immediate 911 assistance is still the key idea. CPR alone will not resuscitate a person in heart failure, only help keep some oxygen circulating until defib.

Lurch
Posts: 1270
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Lurch » April 19th, 2016, 7:39 am

Standards are constantly changing, mostly for making it easier for people to remember. Which tends to make them harder to remember ironically...

The reality is, unless someone drops in front of you, wilderness scenarios are too remote for CPR to likely help. Meaning you're going to be using it on the people you're hiking with, not likely some random stranger. They teach no-breath now as an even simpler way for non-trained people to be able to do something. The compressions move air through the lungs anyways, so there's a bit of function there. Trained people are still taught w/ breaths.

There are even lighter versions of that mask that are completely packable. It has always surprised me that they don't give people a heads up about breaking ribs, or the fact that most people will vomit. If you over inflate the lungs when you blow, that air can go into the stomach, and stomach contents come out... Hence the reason for really wanting that mask..

User avatar
Koda
Posts: 3466
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 7:54 am

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Koda » April 19th, 2016, 8:10 am

After reading the industry guidelines quote Aimless shared its clear that full CPR has an advantage over just chest compression, and that trained individuals is to perform full CPR whereas untrained individuals should be instructed to only perform chest compression's.
The confusion is how they teach that in first aid classes, I recall one instructor saying we no longer need artificial respiration but still teaching the class how to do it on the mannequin… I asked why and got no definite answer, I’m thinking there is some clarity that needs resolved in the industry to train instructors on the new definition.

That REI mask is small and less than an ounce. Made sense to me to add one to my kit. As people meet new friends and hike with larger groups its more likely you wont know who may be prone to cardiac arrest and in many places now cell coverage is more available outdoors.
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

User avatar
5th
Posts: 121
Joined: April 27th, 2015, 9:11 am
Location: Eugene

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by 5th » April 19th, 2016, 11:51 am

I believe everyone should carry their own FA kit, but I also believe that except in the case of more "extreme" outings, FA should essentially emphasize relieving discomfort and dealing with minor injury. For everything else, it's a case of "stop the bleeding and get back to civilization". As such, my FA kit has the following:

1 x 2″ Gauze roll
4 x 3″x3″ sterile pads
6 x Band-aids
1 x Ace bandage (3″ x 3′)
2 x Sheets moleskin
6 x Alcohol wipes
4 x Triple antibiotic packs
24 x Acetaminophen tablets
8 x Ibuprofen tablets
4 x Allergy tablets
6 x Antacid tablets
8 x Loperamide HCl caplets
4 x 40% zinc oxide wipes
6 x Large safety pins
1 x Quality tweezers
1 x Small pair of scissors

This all fits in a sandwich sized ziploc bag and weighs about 5 oz. Everything else can be improvised.

If I'm going to be days from civ I'll carry more, but most of the time I'm hours from civ at the most. This is also the best reason not to carry extra food "in case".

User avatar
-Q-
Posts: 1433
Joined: July 5th, 2008, 10:42 pm

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by -Q- » April 19th, 2016, 6:01 pm

My instructor has also taught the no breath technique for quite a few years now. He indicated that exhaled breath contains a dangerously low oxygen percentage, making it actually harmful to the victim. I cannot validate this (just the student here).

Hard chest compressions with proper technique and rythym is important. "She'll be comin round the mountain" is a perfect song to use for proper pace and rythym.

You will break ribs. If you dont, your not performing chest compressions properly. Be assertive.

Highly recommend everyone take a CPR course if you can. Very good skill to have. Good to know what to expect, and not have to fgure it out on the fly.

I liked learning how to use a defibrillator properly as well. Key for office workers, around town etc.

Lurch
Posts: 1270
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Lurch » April 19th, 2016, 8:39 pm

Koda wrote:After reading the industry guidelines quote Aimless shared its clear that full CPR has an advantage over just chest compression, and that trained individuals is to perform full CPR whereas untrained individuals should be instructed to only perform chest compression's.
The confusion is how they teach that in first aid classes, I recall one instructor saying we no longer need artificial respiration but still teaching the class how to do it on the mannequin… I asked why and got no definite answer, I’m thinking there is some clarity that needs resolved in the industry to train instructors on the new definition.

That REI mask is small and less than an ounce. Made sense to me to add one to my kit. As people meet new friends and hike with larger groups its more likely you wont know who may be prone to cardiac arrest and in many places now cell coverage is more available outdoors.
They found that most people were understandably queasy about giving breaths and exposing themselves to the biohazards (blood, vomit, etc) of a total stranger. If they couldn't do CPR as they were taught, they'd do nothing. No-breath CPR is better than no CPR. As a result, and for a bit of protection from the liability of doing something against training, they came up with that version, and have helped save lives as a result.
-Q- wrote:My instructor has also taught the no breath technique for quite a few years now. He indicated that exhaled breath contains a dangerously low oxygen percentage, making it actually harmful to the victim. I cannot validate this (just the student here).
I have to call Bull on this. Oxy in the normal atmosphere is about 20.8%. Exhaled air is about 15.7% so we've absorbed about 25% of the available O2. That puts you at about the equivalent of breathing the oxygen content of the air at ~8,000' aka Aspen, Colorado... Clearly people live in Aspen.

User avatar
Koda
Posts: 3466
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 7:54 am

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Koda » April 20th, 2016, 8:56 am

True and I understand why but the problem I have is removing the choice from those qualified to provide a greater level of care to the victim. The current instruction on this topic is not totally clear and withholding this information in an attempt to get more people doing “something” is a double edge sword, all they have to do is explain this… or charge less for the class. IMO anyone taking a paid professional class should come out of it qualified to provide full CPR and if they choose to not provide artificial respiration on a blood and vomit covered stranger that’s a different subject… (people have a right to not risk their life exposing themselves to unknown biohazard). I took my class specifically for my family and friends. Even asking the question in paid professional class I finally get the answer in a random thread on a hiking forum unless I’m mistaken, full CPR does have a medical advantage over only doing chest compressions. The answers I got have been “it’s no longer necessary” or “you don’t have to if you don’t want” to which always left me confused on why I had to get sloppy seconds sucking face on a CPR manikin to pass the class. :lol: :mrgreen:
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

Lurch
Posts: 1270
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Lurch » April 20th, 2016, 12:46 pm

I think the cause of most of your frustration and confusion comes from liability...

Good Sam laws essentially protect 'good samaritans' from legal action, so long as the aid they provide is in good faith, not negligent, and within the scope of their training. This is where the double edge sword comes in. You as random civilian have no duty to stop and help someone. However, if you DO stop and help, you have a duty to do so properly, as you've been trained. Meaning once you start treatment, you can't walk away unless someone of equal or higher medical training takes over. You also can't do things contrary to what you were taught. This is generally to keep people from MacGyvering an emergency tracheotomy with a pen and a pocket knife, but if you arbitrarily decide you don't want to give breaths during CPR because Eeeewwwwwww Stranger... You're now acting out of the scope of your training, and could theoretically be held liable if that person were to die... Granted if you're performing CPR, they're essentially already dead... but that's besides the point

By teaching no-breath in an actual class, they give people an alternative, it becomes an option that fits within the scope of training, and conveniently tucks them back into the protection of the Good Sam laws

User avatar
Koda
Posts: 3466
Joined: June 5th, 2009, 7:54 am

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Koda » April 20th, 2016, 1:20 pm

then they should charge less for the class.
IIRC one instructor mentioned they could literally instruct someone over the 911 phone to do breathless CPR (chest compression only) as a reason for teaching it.


under the Good Samaratin laws, does someone have the right to not expose themselves to biohazards (blood, vomit) even if they are qualified (trained) and began helping?
lightweight, cheap, strong... pick 2

Lurch
Posts: 1270
Joined: May 28th, 2008, 10:03 pm
Location: Aurora
Contact:

Re: First Aid Kit

Post by Lurch » April 20th, 2016, 2:00 pm

If you start CPR, but intentionally do it differently than you were taught, then you're acting outside your scope of training..

Post Reply