Central Cascades permit changes

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adamschneider
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Central Cascades permit changes

Post by adamschneider » February 17th, 2022, 12:01 pm

Remember how half of the people who bought Central Cascades Wilderness Permits never showed up to use them? Turns out -- no surprise -- most of the no-show permits were purchased before the hiking season even started.

So they've adjusted it. Now they'll release day-use permits in two batches: 60% of them 10 days in advance, and the remainder 2 days in advance.

More details here, via OPB: https://www.opb.org/article/2022/02/16/ ... s-changes/

And the USFS's official page: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/willamet ... eprd688355

gallione11
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by gallione11 » February 17th, 2022, 12:24 pm

Not a fan of this, but that's because I was one of the few who purchased when they were released and actually used them. The one time I was unsure of when I'd be down there, I reserved two consecutive days and as soon as plans were finalized, I returned the ones I wasn't going to use.

Also, the recreation.gov site has been extremely terrible to me this year trying to book camping. I can have multiple sites picked out ready for the 7am window to begin, and every time this year, I'd get the "Sorry, our traffic is too high right now, please try again" error about three or four times, and then "Sorry, site is booked". Ended up having to skip Timothy Lake this year for that reason, and finally got about my 7th site choice for Rainier. So, not looking forward to that experience again. At least, last year when they released a bunch all at once, not everyone was focused on the same date.

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drm
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by drm » February 17th, 2022, 2:34 pm

Using this kind of rolling availability will hopefully prevent or at least lessen the problem of having a large number of permits all come on line at once and have the site get overwhelmed.

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Charley
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Charley » February 17th, 2022, 5:53 pm

This seems like a better way of doing releasing permits, but the program is still a bad policy that intentionally excludes certain kinds of people from a huge area of public land.

The dates look to have shifted as well, though I had to rely on a non-FS website to look recall the 2021 dates. In 2021, it looks like the program ran from May 28 to September 24. Now the dates are June 15 to October 15.

That's not good: the later start date doesn't do backpackers much good, because the highest trails are often still snow-covered.

The later end date (three weeks later!) is worse, though, because it meaningfully reduces the "open" season. In fact, those early autumn trips can be quite awesome (snow free, trails have been logged out, less crowded, and cooler, depending on the weather); now they'll be more expensive, require tech-savvy, and the ability to plan ahead.

The Forest Service continues to make the Wilderness more exclusive and oriented toward upper class people with relatively more privilege and means. That ain't cool.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 18th, 2022, 6:18 am

also no bugs (advantage of camping in fall)

this is still a stupid idea. Maybe Green Lakes needs to be managed more but not the rest of the wilderness.

I don't think they're doing it for rich people. They just don't want many people in the wilderness because it's easier to manage. And humans are inconsistent with the idea of the Wilderness being pristine and human free.

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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Catdaddy » February 18th, 2022, 6:53 pm

Well, for me, the reservation system--at least in principle--is fine. I work full-time and have to plan my vacation time well in advance, due to the nature of what I do. I am FAR from wealthy OR privileged. I do get the fact that perhaps spur-of-the-moment trips are now pretty much gone in those areas where the reservation system has been implemented. I do remember the days when you could just pack your gear and go, and all you had to do was fill out a wilderness permit at the trailhead. But I also can see where the USFS is coming from in trying to limit the impact on the land. I live in Bend (for now) and it's unreal the crowds I see at the trailheads. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I can see why the USFS is doing what it is doing. And it's not like this is new. National Parks have been doing this for a long time.

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 19th, 2022, 7:07 am

welcome to the site!

I don't mind if the trailhead is crowded. I've always been able to find relative solitude up there. Just walk through busy areas. But some people don't mind camping there and that's okay too.

I haven't found the area to be trashed. There are spots, like when you first get to Green Lakes or at the top of Obsidian Falls, but they're a fraction of the area.

I thought what they were doing before was fine - let people know where the busy areas are and have camping in designated sites only there.

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drm
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by drm » February 19th, 2022, 10:38 am

Yeah, these systems benefit infrequent wilderness visitors who have to plan everything far in advance and will only go once or twice a year. Us regular users who know the terrain well and can find a space - and many of us are traveling solo or in small groups - are the ones inconvenienced by these systems. Why anybody would consider the former to be privileged in comparison with the latter mystifies me.

We have history going back centuries that shows that the community needs to control the use of the commons to prevent it's degradation, at the cost of some inconvenience for the heaviest users. The alternative is to privatize it. Maybe it is the frequent visitors who are the privileged, regardless of their financial status.

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Charley
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Charley » February 19th, 2022, 11:04 am

Catdaddy wrote:
February 18th, 2022, 6:53 pm
But I also can see where the USFS is coming from in trying to limit the impact on the land. I live in Bend (for now) and it's unreal the crowds I see at the trailheads. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I can see why the USFS is doing what it is doing. And it's not like this is new. National Parks have been doing this for a long time.
I agree that the USFS is responding to a real problem! I just think the problem would be solved by less restrictive measures... such as the measures used by National Parks.

Specifically, I can't think of a National Park that requires a day use permit to simply go for a dayhike! Registering in advance to take a stroll through wildflower meadows at Mt Rainier? That's not a thing.

The Parks have more restrictive policies regarding climbing and overnight camping, but those activities are higher impact. Day hiking is not penalized in the same way.

So I respectfully disagree: I believe this is new.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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Charley
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Charley » February 19th, 2022, 11:14 am

drm wrote:
February 19th, 2022, 10:38 am
Yeah, these systems benefit infrequent wilderness visitors who have to plan everything far in advance and will only go once or twice a year. Us regular users who know the terrain well and can find a space - and many of us are traveling solo or in small groups - are the ones inconvenienced by these systems. Why anybody would consider the former to be privileged in comparison with the latter mystifies me.
I wasn't comparing privilege on an axis of of experienced backcountry users compared to less experienced users.

I was comparing on an axes of
- tech savvy,
- ability to plan in advance (many service workers don't know their schedule from week to week, and in my work, I have sometimes not even known my work schedule from day to day, because in the construction industry, the weather determines the work), and
- economic wherewithal (these fees add up)

I believe I understand the point you were making, and I agree it's a wonderful privilege to spend a large part of one's life in the outdoors! But I'm referring to the more "social justice" oriented definition of privilege, in which economic class, income, age, (etc.) have disproportionate effects on life activities and outcomes.

I believe that the restrictive entry system discourages people from entering their public Wilderness lands, and that some people are discouraged more than others. I believe that's inegalitarian, and inappropriate.
Believe it or not, I barely ever ride a mountain bike.

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