Central Cascades permit changes

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Bosterson
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Bosterson » February 25th, 2022, 10:54 pm

I think the Enchantments are a good comparison. No, they're not a half hour drive from Seattle but it's similar to us driving to St. Helens. There are about a bazillion times as many people living in Seattle as Bend; if anything, I would guess the central Cascades are underused compared to Alpine Lakes. The Snoqualmie trailheads are only about half an hour from Seattle and I believe are like Green Lakes-level slammed in summer, and yet the FS has not tried to slap a day use restriction there yet, at least to my knowledge. I think the point of the comparison - and this is a point we made during the objector process with the FS over the Central Cascades permits - is that it's a fallacy to assume everyone is going outdoors in a non selective way. Certain places are overcrowded, but that correlates with proximity to metro areas but also with ease of access (Green Lakes is a short hike) and with "high value" status (Green Lakes is popular on Instagram). The assumption that every person who can't get a parking space at the most desirable destination will overflow to every other trailhead, rather than waiting or coming back later, misunderstands how people behave. The FS did not show proof this was happening, and was not willing to test a much more limited restriction area and then expand what had quotas if severe overflow did occur. They took overflow as a given and used it to justify the plan were going to approve from the start.
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adamschneider
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by adamschneider » February 25th, 2022, 11:11 pm

Bosterson wrote:
February 25th, 2022, 10:54 pm
The Snoqualmie trailheads are only about half an hour from Seattle and I believe are like Green Lakes-level slammed in summer, and yet the FS has not tried to slap a day use restriction there yet, at least to my knowledge.
The parking areas at Snoqualmie Pass are massive, because the trailheads are at the ski areas. (Obviously parking isn't the whole story, but it's certainly part of it.)

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Charley
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by Charley » February 25th, 2022, 11:58 pm

justpeachy wrote:
February 25th, 2022, 4:56 pm
Is that a fair comparison to make, though? The Central Cascades has a pretty big population living very close by. The Enchantments don't, if I'm not I'm not mistaken, although I admit to not being very familiar with the area. I do know that the drive from Seattle to the Leavenworth area is four times longer than the drive from Bend to many of the Central Cascades trailheads.
Well, I think it is, but your point is valid: the two areas have different demographic and transportation profiles.

On the other hand, Bosterson is right that the Instagram effect is huge: the insta-cred of a sunrise selfie at No Name Lake doesn't seem to be fungible with, say, a view of one of the mosquito-choked lakes further south on the Cascade Lakes Highway. For the FS to plan as if the two are interchangeable. . . well, you get the point.

Maybe we're on the safest ground just to stick to Bosterson's other comment: the FS plan was the most restrictive intervention they could manage to push through, even though the plan's extensive reach doesn't seem to have been based on anything more than the worst case scenario of a thought experiment.

Perhaps the FS leaders felt that this would be their only chance? Were they expecting different leadership in the USDA? Did they predict that, even if such extensive exclusions were currently unwarranted, the exclusions would become necessary if Bend continues to grow in population?
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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 26th, 2022, 6:38 am

I did a few Enchantments trips in the 1970s. Very crowded then. It would be overly crowded today without doing something. Very popular area and not that big. I think permits there are a good thing.

I did the Enchantments a few years ago with a permit. Still crowded but manageable. I think they allow a lot more people than the central cascades.

I'd only grumble a little if they just restricted Green Lakes (although camping in designated sites only is sufficient in my opinion, what they did before)

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 27th, 2022, 8:38 am

https://www.wweek.com/outdoors/2022/02/ ... -for-2022/

They said that the fee would be changed

Last year - $6 for processing fee

This year - adds $1 per person

Does that violate the law that says Forest Service can not charge for entry into the wilderness?

The law says they can only charge for the amenities at a trailhead, not for entry.

Maybe it's legal to charge the $6 processing fee - that's to pay for the reservation system, not use of the national forest

They removed the per person and per day charges last summer to avoid law suits (also to make it easier for low income people?)

This is sort of like the camel sticking its nose under the tent :)

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 27th, 2022, 8:44 am

I just noticed that Olympic National Park lifted it's quota for all backpacking in the National Park. That was just a covid policy.

It's now only quota at a few busy areas like High Divide and the Grand Valley - I think we're now at the end of the end of the covid crisis - now it will be more of a background problem (unless there's another variant and another surge :( )

That would make more sense in the Central Cascades - quota in just busy areas like Green Lakes and Obsidian

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adamschneider
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by adamschneider » February 27th, 2022, 8:44 am

retired jerry wrote:
February 27th, 2022, 8:38 am
Last year - $6 for processing fee

This year - adds $1 per person

Does that violate the law that says Forest Service can not charge for entry into the wilderness?
The $1 per person is for the day use permits. Overnight permits are a $6 flat fee per group, up to 12 people.

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by retired jerry » February 27th, 2022, 9:33 am

okay, maybe I mis-read the WW article or they mis reported it

johnspeth
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by johnspeth » June 6th, 2022, 6:39 am

I'm wondering what proof a permit holder is expected to present on the trail if asked to provide it by an authorized enforcement officer. This information seems to be impossible to find. I tried and came up empty.

Is it cell phone access to rec.gov to show the issued permit? Is it paper? Is a stored image displayed on an offline phone sufficient?

AlpenGlowHiker
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Re: Central Cascades permit changes

Post by AlpenGlowHiker » June 7th, 2022, 5:37 am

I'm also wondering, if there is a fine and if so, how much? This is such a large area, and enforcement costs money, so I'm willing to bet enforcement will be low, except for at the overly populated areas.

Jerry, didn't you say that you saw maybe one person last year(?)?

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