Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

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Water
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Re: Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

Post by Water » December 27th, 2019, 3:03 pm

Hyperbole in relation to the hand wringing that services at thousand acres would drain from trail work elsewhere. I'll own that.

If you could ever find a demarcated budget that actually showed trail maintenance expenditure by National Forest vs revenues from access fees you'd see the trail work in relation is about as big as a dog poop floating down the Columbia.
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drm
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Re: Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

Post by drm » December 29th, 2019, 10:49 am

Water wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 3:03 pm
If you could ever find a demarcated budget that actually showed trail maintenance expenditure by National Forest vs revenues from access fees you'd see the trail work in relation is about as big as a dog poop floating down the Columbia.
I asked for numbers like that and the response is that the way funds are mingled, it just isn't possible. Trail work involves salaries, equipment, etc, that are all used for other things too. Both the source and expenditures are deeply mingled and a clear number if just not available. There is no doubt whatever it is is a very small dollop of FS funds, but that wasn't the point. Given everything else it does, from fighting fires to building roads (some of which hikers really need but is not considered trail funds), a very small percentage is not necessarily a tiny amount. We all wish it was more like NP trail support, but it isn't.

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Water
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Re: Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

Post by Water » December 29th, 2019, 11:56 am

Water wrote:
December 27th, 2019, 3:03 pm
...trail maintenance expenditure by National Forest vs revenues from access fees you'd see the trail work in relation is about as big as a dog poop floating down the Columbia.

How is that even an acceptable response from the FS? They can't say how many miles? How many hours? If they have no clue how much they spend on it, what justification do they have to say the NWFP is needed for maintaining trails? Really, it just goes into a pot and all kinda works out? Certainly they must plan their trail work activities, do they trash the planning work after? Did they throw a dart at the wall to determine their deferred maintenance backlog?

The can't even by district or NF unit? They seem to be able to offer pretty granular numbers for fire work, logging bids, etc, am I really to believe that there's no shared resources between that and any other FS activities?

And at the same time GPNF for instance wants to spend millions on capital investments in NEW facilities across their district including in remote areas and redundant areas (bathroom less than a mile away), so that they may charge a fee. Yet they say they say they have unfunded deferred maintenance in the millions. I'm not sure what the justification is on building more things that will need expensive maintenance. Maybe they think they're gonna fee their way out of it? It will only increase the backlog if it's currently unfunded.

I'm not criticizing trail crews, but let's disabuse ourselves of the notion as recreationalists that the FS shares any basic interest at management levels, of simply hiking, jogging, etc disbursed camping in the woods, beyond monetizing and charging for access to public lands that they spend very very little of the access fees on.
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gorgehiker
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Re: Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

Post by gorgehiker » February 10th, 2020, 7:17 pm

Volunteers pick up the trash, I believe. The part that is closed is for birds, earlier ducks unlimited provided funds and that area was open for hunting.

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Re: Sandy River Delta Day Use Fee begins Jan 17

Post by markesc » February 13th, 2020, 6:24 am

Couldn't agree more!!

I could easily do a BOOK on this topic!

So when has giving crack to a crack addict ever led to that addict nolonger being addicted to crack? Seems like the problem isn't the forest service and money, but more so those that continue to give the forest service money.


Water wrote:
December 25th, 2019, 11:03 pm
The FS already doesn't spend money on trails really just as an fyi. Your dollars go to privies, tp stock, trash service, pump outs, kiosks, picnic tables, etc.

If it really went to trails you'd be able to find it front and center how many miles were maintained each year in each district / expenses on such would be detailed on the yearly NWFP 'where does your money go' info sheets. Instead any meager trail expenditures are rolled up under the above services, aka not trails.

"It's complicated" - well, if one day it's ever too expensive for you to hike, hopefully that won't seem too complicated. The FS has made it complicated. Trail work is about the cheapest service they can provide. Americorps crews of 12 young adults run something like $14k for 2 weeks of work.

The proposed budget for Central Cascades, at a base level revenue expected (215k/year), puts 11.6% (25k) of it into trail work, restoration, work in the woods. Barely over 10%. It's laughably inept for an entire permit system intended to address overuse. Consider 89% of it going to admin and enforcement of the new system if it isn't going to tangible work activities in the wilderness.

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