Central Cascades permit fees announced

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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by retired jerry » December 10th, 2019, 3:18 pm

what will happen to me if I just ignore this and go there without worrying about getting a permit?

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adamschneider
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by adamschneider » December 10th, 2019, 4:02 pm

$4 for a day-use permit... that's not horrifying. (And if I'm reading it correctly, you don't need to pay for a NW Forest Pass on top of that.)

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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » December 10th, 2019, 4:32 pm

adamschneider wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 4:02 pm
$4 for a day-use permit... that's not horrifying. (And if I'm reading it correctly, you don't need to pay for a NW Forest Pass on top of that.)
assuming you can get one of the 4 available for a wonderfully accessible trailhead like Breitenbush Lake that has parking for 20+ cars. haha


Matt Peterson, I'm looking forward to the next round of public meetings on the fee proposal. Why would the FS expend the resources to host multiple meetings in different towns while only presenting a mere press release to the public when there was a more extensive proposal about the fees? That's either acting in bad faith, a poor use of taxpayer resources, or clear that the press release soliciting comment was half baked; or maybe some of all of the above.

Additionally you've posted on this site when it was called Portland hikers in your capacity as an employee of Williamette National Forest, so you thought the information about your NF was relevant and pertinent to people who presumably lived in Portland. Why would the FS not host a meeting in Portland too when it seems a user-base here would be significantly affected?

For anyone reading it, clearly the FS is taking the shotgun approach by listing out basically every existing duty performed to manage a wilderness and hoping a few actually will fall under SRP. Almost all of the 'special services' presented under Special Recreation Permit (SRP) fee use are existing operations of FS duty (Wilderness patrols) or covered under FLREA standard amenity charges. Many are things the FS has previously been doing without a SRP, so it is confusing why they would be using SRP funds to continue doing it. Operating privy pump-outs, outside of the wilderness, is not a specialized use of wilderness nor a service provided within that area. It would be good if the FS also provided where the reduction in expenditures from NWFP money would go once they are getting their estimated $325,000 a year for wilderness access.

So you'd be paying with a NWFP to park and use the standard amenities at Pole Creek for a day hike. But if you're over-nighting from the same trailhead you'd be paying a SRP to maintain the same trailhead amenities. Very confusing, mostly because this is not the intended function of FLREA by a million miles.
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adamschneider
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by adamschneider » December 10th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Water wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 4:32 pm
assuming you can get one of the 4 available for a wonderfully accessible trailhead like Breitenbush Lake that has parking for 20+ cars.
Yeah, that one's a head-scratcher. There might be a logical explanation, though: Maybe they decided that Jefferson Park could only handle a certain number of people per day, and if they equally distributed them among trailheads, it might seem unfair to people who don't have burly vehicles. (It might also simply reflect the current usage numbers compared to South Breitenbush and Whitewater.)

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Chip Down
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Chip Down » December 10th, 2019, 8:07 pm

retired jerry wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 3:18 pm
what will happen to me if I just ignore this and go there without worrying about getting a permit?
Perhaps an even better question: What would happen if we all ignored it? What if everybody simultaneously stopped buying permits?

But back to the question posed: Many have observed that citations for ignoring the Forest Pass are extremely rare. One could extrapolate. However, U$F$ employees have publicly stated that on this new scheme, they intend to go after scofflaws with a vengeance. Maybe just chest-thumping, who knows.

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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Aimless » December 10th, 2019, 8:28 pm

Chip Down wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 8:07 pm
What would happen if we all ignored it?
I calculate the chances of everyone ignoring it, even with a massive publicity campaign attempting to coordinate a boycott among all the hikers potentially affected, are approximately nil. We each will make our personal choice about observing these new rules and fees, independently of one another. The result of how those thousands of choices add up in the aggregate are about as much a mystery to the USFS as to you and I. They say they are confident the new rules will be obeyed to the extent that the system will be generally observed, and the task of enforcement will not be completely impossible. I suspect they are right, although I think that enforcement will by necessity be limited enough that scofflaws will slip through with some regularity, just as poachers routinely get away with it in spite of ODFW enforcement efforts.

You and others seem intrigued by the idea of ignoring it and certainly no one here will stop you if you do. I plan to figure it out the same way the USFS will, based on cautiously feeling my way ahead and seeing what happens.

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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » December 10th, 2019, 8:50 pm

It seems a little obscene to even compare poaching animals to dispersed unimproved camping with no actual services provided, in areas that the FS has explicitly stated do not see too many people, without a permit. In areas that have historically been accessible without a permit. And no less a permit program which is "without precedent" in the words of the FS.
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Aimless
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Aimless » December 10th, 2019, 9:02 pm

I was not comparing the type of infractions committed, but the type of enforcement. As I see it, they share similar enforcement difficulties, covering large tracts of uninhabited wilderness and will use similar strategies of enforcing mostly at obvious pinch points, with very light enforcement elsewhere. If that seems obscene to you, I can't help it.

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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » December 10th, 2019, 9:50 pm

To that end it's not so different than speeding or parking tickets, or rolling through stop signs or red lights in the night, is it? if you're just talking about enforcement and strategies. Large areas, many people, inadequate enforcement abilities.

The real question though, unlike poaching or the above infractions, is if it's even legal for the FS to use FLREA like this, they very well could be talking about enforcement of something which they have no legal standing to enforce, other than offering a free permit that may be related to quotas. If Matt Peterson's et al. observation's of online and in person dissent and the subsequent in-line release of a previously unavailable document to try to buttress the legal grounds for this are any indication, it's a totally after the fact cya move.
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kepPNW
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by kepPNW » December 11th, 2019, 7:22 am

Chip Down wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 8:07 pm
However, U$F$ employees have publicly stated that on this new scheme, they intend to go after scofflaws with a vengeance. Maybe just chest-thumping, who knows.
One ranger I encountered near Broken Top this summer, when I asked about the dismaying enforcement nightmare ahead, said she understood the plan to be "lots of education!" and "actually less work!" next year. I tried, but honestly couldn't contain the laugh...
Karl
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