Central Cascades permit fees announced

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kepPNW
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by kepPNW » October 10th, 2019, 1:38 pm

Water wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 1:01 pm
Bosterson wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 10:54 am
... So as far as I can tell, absent evidence to the contrary you would be required to buy their limited entry permit AND have a NWFP. ...
Trying to find the source but I believe they said if you have a permit you won't need a NWFP.
Only place I've actually seen that was in the Statesman-Journal article...

New hiking permits for Three Sisters, Mount Jefferson proposed for $4 to $11 per day

... and Zach repeating the assertion on Facebook (more than) a few times. So perhaps it's only been said in interviews? I asked him for more background, and didn't hear back.
Bosterson wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 10:54 am
It seems like the most realistic outcome will be FS posting rangers to check permits at the TH as you enter the trail.
Agreed. It's the only way they can actually know if you're in violation, short a confession, eh? And, I'll just say again, if they're gonna do it based on a lack of displayed permit on the dashboard, they'll have a damn hard time defending that. (Say you wanted to park at Devil's Lake to take a swim rather than go hiking...?)

The really intriguing quote in that article, though, would be this...
Forest Service officials said they planned on "partnering with nonprofit organizations to make fee free permits available to anyone deterred from visiting because of the cost of the proposed fee," Deschutes National Forest spokeswoman Jean Nelson-Dean said.
Any one here feeling un-deterred?
Karl
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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » October 10th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Additionally:
Appendix D – Past and Ongoing Management Actions in Wilderness Areas
https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/n ... 647968.pdf

From the final decision notice... not once mentioned is simply: enforcement
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BigBear
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by BigBear » October 10th, 2019, 1:56 pm

Exceeding the Solitude Limit. There is no limit to number of people on the trail with regard to either the 1964 or 1984 Wilderness Act. The concept of 12 persons came from a circa 1985 survey of trail users with regards to what they felt constituted a "solitude experience." Some people said they wanted zero contacts, others said 10, some said 100 contacts, etc. The "average" of this survey came to 12 people/horses/dogs - 12 heartbeats.

In the mid-90s, Gifford-Pinchot rangers decided out-of-the-blue, to physically enforce their concept of 12 persons (heartbeats in a group) by mandating group separation with random appearances in the middle of the forest. I'm not kidding on this - it just suddenly happened.

The documentation of 12-person group size came later when USFS started having you sign free permits at the trailhead. It is a "rule" on the back of the card.

Thankfully all of this BS from the bureau that mismanages the forest every way possible has come at a time when I have grown too slow and tired to do the hikes I once did. I am out of energy to fight the sadistic "men in green" who push people around in the forest (remember, they ignore the two federal court rulings involving the ambiguously-prohibited NWFP when they issue you a $100 fine even if you have a permit).

One group in the Zig Zag RD was cited for "laughing int he wilderness" and having "too many people swimming" even though they had less than 12 int he group. The real knee-slapper: the leader of this group was a USFS employee down at the Gresham regional office. It was news to him that there were rules regarding laughing int he wilderness.

There's no question there are more people who want to visit their public lands than most of us would like to see. Unfortunately this draconian measure of enforcing strict limits is a violation of our access to public land and will result only in the wealthy being able to enjoy the beauty of nature.

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A. Hugh Jass
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by A. Hugh Jass » October 10th, 2019, 2:02 pm

Follow the money....

Let's not forget about the Recreation.gov processing fees to. The Obsidian trail permit is FREE! Oops, but you MUST book it online with Recreation.gov for a $6 processing fee. Even if you show up at the FS office they require you to do it online.

I told my wife months ago, "when the permitting system is in place they will use recreation.gov". I smell a kickback.

The Cedar Mesa plateau in Utah charges a daily permit fee of $2 per person. Guess what. You can purchase the permit at the ranger station, no additional processing fee.

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teachpdx
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by teachpdx » October 10th, 2019, 2:28 pm

A. Hugh Jass wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 2:02 pm
when the permitting system is in place they will use recreation.gov
I can almost stomach a $6 fee via recreation.gov if the pass is FREE and it covers an entire group for multiple days (ie. the Mt. Margaret Backcountry camping permits).

BUT charging money overnight per person PLUS tacking on this fee is simply exorbitant. Additionally, since they seem to no longer require NWFP at trailheads with this scheme, what good are the annual passes that we own? Worthless whenever we hit up the Willamette and Deschutes forests? It's simply the USFS justifying a blatant money-grab in the name of "solitude and stewardship".

Just a small example... if I want to do a 1 night solo trip anywhere in this permit area, it's gonna cost me $11. That's more than a third of the current annual NWFP. $16 if my partner joins me, and now we're over half. And no refunds for bad weather or last-minute changes. It's just simply too much.

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A. Hugh Jass
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by A. Hugh Jass » October 10th, 2019, 2:53 pm

teachpdx wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 2:28 pm
And no refunds for bad weather or last-minute changes. It's just simply too much.
Bingo! Right exactly on.

Here are some areas that are heavily used and do allow walk-in permits without the extra recreation.gov fee: The Enchantments, Mt. Whitney Portal, and The Wave.

I climbed Whitney in a day a few years ago. I got to the Lone Pine office at 3pm the day before the climb and I got a FREE permit to climb the next day. People who reserved permits and did not pick them up before 3pm become available for walk-ins. That is for Mount Freaken Whitney - one of the most used areas for hikers in the country and you can get a free permit.

Also, why can't I just stop by the FS office on my way up and pay the fee in person?

Looks like I'll have to get a Free PCT permit, and deviate off the trail for a free climb up South Sister.

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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » October 10th, 2019, 3:31 pm

teachpdx wrote:
October 10th, 2019, 2:28 pm
Just a small example... if I want to do a 1 night solo trip anywhere in this permit area, it's gonna cost me $11. That's more than a third of the current annual NWFP. $16 if my partner joins me, and now we're over half. And no refunds for bad weather or last-minute changes. It's just simply too much.
Woe be the person in salem or bend who likes to go to these places. Nothing extreme about camping out for 1 night twice a month in June, July, August, September with a friend or your partner. My partner and I used to easily camp 3-4 weekends (sometimes including friday night too) all summer long for months.

the above scenario would cost $128 over the summer. And assumes the weather cooperates since your dates aren't flexible. And unless it's always to green lake or moraine lake or jeff park, and you present find them 'way too overcrowded' and have a bad experience.. you'd really have to ask yourself what you're getting for it. Like if you're disbursed camping over by pole creek... or black crater.. or high on jeff not in jeff park.. or by south jefferson the table, etc..
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retired jerry
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by retired jerry » October 11th, 2019, 5:08 am

Olympic National Park charges $8 per night per person for backpacking, plus $6

In the winter you can just grab the permit at the trailhead. There's an envelope to put the fee in and then mail it when you're done with your trip. I wonder if anyone has actually mailed the fee in? After the trip there's no reason to. (Actually I have before but I don't usually). At least that's how they've done it in the past.

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jessbee
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by jessbee » October 11th, 2019, 5:10 am

I'll add that all of the purported benefits of the permit system: increased solitude, reduction in human impact, etc assumes 100% compliance with the program.

A friend recently attended an Oregon trails conference and said that at one presentation they stated that with a volunteer/ ranger at the trailhead, 100% if people fill out the FREE wilderness permits. Without that human presence, the number drops to 30%. So, without a substantial enforcement plan, there will be low compliance and no improvements to solitude out whatever BS they are starting will happen with these permits. That means you'll be paying to hike and backpack for the same experience that's available today.

And Matt, you're right. If you want to start your backpacking trip from a permitted trailhead but then Bushwhack of trail to your favorite little Backcountry site, you'll pay the same as some tourist who wants to camp at Green lakes with a bunch of other people.
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Water
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Re: Central Cascades permit fees announced

Post by Water » October 11th, 2019, 9:08 am

I realize the forum traffic is not what it once was..

But anyone from TKO, I know it's just a handful of you and an adhoc board, but you've got 6~ weeks until this fee comment period is over. Does TKO as a hiking/advocacy group have any position to take on this? imo this is the type of thing you can represent hikers and at least as far as I'm concerned it makes a case of if I were to donate money, is the organization standing for a position I agree with?

For instance, I give generously to NWAC because I really feel the service is worthwhile, even though they're pretty SEA-centric. and I've liked the ways they have advocated. Same as AAC who has been willing to both challenge federal land use in the interest of climbers but also work collaboratively with land managers.

TKO board has had ample time to know about this project and is now in another phase where they are able to take a position. A lack of any position says a lot more to me than on either side of it/or some mix. Speaking directly to Splinter, Bobcat, Peachy.. even if I don't see eye to eye with what you'd collectively decide, I think your input to the FS on this has potential to be helpful and can reflect concerns here from people without being antagonizing or negative towards the FS, or even challenging.
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