Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

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retired jerry
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by retired jerry » November 16th, 2018, 7:26 am

I'm not quite ready to join a USFS lynch mob, they're just trying to do their job with limited resources

But they have this attitude that if it's crowded they should just restrict usage and charge fees through recreation.gov

I think they should adjust their attitude to figuring out how to deal with the crowds, encourage people to use our public lands, if it's crowded that's a good thing

I go out all the time and for decades and don't find the crowds unbearable. I avoid the most crowded areas or when there are a lot of people I appreciate that experience

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Charley
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Charley » November 16th, 2018, 8:40 am

Bosterson wrote:
November 14th, 2018, 10:10 pm
(Charley - how did you come up with "family of four" as the economic yardstick of hiking? it's not like we're talking about annual household income ;)
What? That's me, my wife, and our two cats. :)

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kepPNW
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by kepPNW » November 16th, 2018, 9:16 am

Guy wrote:
November 15th, 2018, 6:34 pm
I'd also like to add how this is another example of how wilderness permits were used against the hiking community. The USFS like to say we should fill these out so that they can argue for more resources and funding but that's total BS. All the time people have been filling these out the USFS has been reducing access and trails and only using the data collected as an excuse to reduce access further.
Boom! I haven't filled one out in some time, now.

Time to plead the 5th!? :roll:
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Don Nelsen
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Don Nelsen » November 16th, 2018, 9:24 am

retired jerry wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 7:26 am
I'm not quite ready to join a USFS lynch mob, they're just trying to do their job with limited resources

But they have this attitude that if it's crowded they should just restrict usage and charge fees through recreation.gov

I think they should adjust their attitude to figuring out how to deal with the crowds, encourage people to use our public lands, if it's crowded that's a good thing

I go out all the time and for decades and don't find the crowds unbearable. I avoid the most crowded areas or when there are a lot of people I appreciate that experience
What Jerry said. - I'll add: Most of the FS types are fine folks, just trying to do their job. It is their managment that is misguided and needs a total philosophical reset.
"Everything works in the planning stage".

BigBear
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by BigBear » November 16th, 2018, 12:57 pm

Adam: Your question was: What would I do?

I have been an avid hiker for over 30 years. USFS rangers had historically said that day hikers weren't the problem, it was backpackers, specifically those who want a campfire when there is no ground wood laying around any longer (and they cut live trees) and pitch their tents on vegetation instead of the bare spots.

USFS plan: (1) Curtail day hikers as well as backpackers, that is unless you're carrying a rifle and then there's no limit. Not sure how carrying a gun lessens your impact on high impact trails and I'm not sure how a trail with a high use of hikers is beneficial to seeing and shooting a deer.

So, where do all of these hikers go? To other trails to do the same "harm" USFS claims to be existing ont he restricted trails.

and (2) charge hikers $8 or $10 every time they get the urge to visit public land... that is, in addition tot he $5 they charge illegally (or unambiguously prohibited) they do already. That translates into $13 to $15 per hike which the federal courts have already said "no" to but USFS ignores the law and proceeds on its merry way.

According to a Region 6 budget analyst back in 1995 when the illegal trailhead pass first went into supposed volunteer effect, the amount in the budget for trail maintenance was zeroed out. This was also a violation of REA, but USFS again ignored the citation and did what it wanted to do.

The concept of solitude is arbitrary. Although it appears int he 1964 and 1984 Wilderness Acts, a limit of 12 persons in a group or an hour between groups was instituted in the late 1990s. Prior to that, groups of 20, 40 or more were in compliance with the Act.

Sure I would like solitude - hiking alone - in the wilderness, but that just isn't going to happen as long as people keep having babies. Babies grow up to be adults and some of them like to hike and see waterfalls and stuff like that. As the population increases, so do the number of hikers. The only hope is that people value sloth over exploration, but that seems to be a ways off.

My solution: Either limit family size or recognize that solitude is a relative thing and prepare yourself to hike on a trail with other people. Limit resource issues by limiting camping in the back-country and eliminating campfires when there is not an adequate ground supply of wood.

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jessbee
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by jessbee » November 16th, 2018, 1:30 pm

BigBear wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 12:57 pm

My solution: Either limit family size or recognize that solitude is a relative thing and prepare yourself to hike on a trail with other people. Limit resource issues by limiting camping in the back-country and eliminating campfires when there is not an adequate ground supply of wood.
There's some interesting research on solitude, including this quick read: https://www.wilderness.net/library/documents/hall1.pdf

I think Troy Hall was one of the panelists at McMenamins when they were discussing permit options. She said since people's definition of solitude varies so widely, it's really hard to regulate how solitude is achieved. Anyhow, I very much doubt that preserving solitude is the main reason behind these dramatic measures.

Ironically, I choose to hike in the Three Sisters Wilderness *because* I want solitude, and I can find it there.
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retired jerry
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by retired jerry » November 16th, 2018, 1:52 pm

yeah, there's lots of solitude in Three Sisters.

Lots of people as I walk through Green Lakes area, for example, but most of the trail doesn't have a lot of people

Get off the trail and there's solitude. Rarely do I see another soul.

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cunningkeith
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by cunningkeith » November 17th, 2018, 9:30 am

Let's brainstorm for a minute:

What advocacy groups would theoretically have the interest and resources to fund a legal challenge to this? Here's my list, but please add any suggestions, even if they might be longshots:

Bend Chamber of Commerce
Bark
Pacific Crest Trail Association
Sierra Club

Who else?

A trails club of some sort?

Another environmental group?

Somebody who represents climbers?

Some group that represents hunters? (they also get a raw deal here--they're subject to all the quotas except a 1-week exemption in September)


Please suggest other possibilities.

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Charley
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Charley » November 17th, 2018, 9:47 am

cunningkeith wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 9:30 am
Let's brainstorm for a minute:
What advocacy groups would theoretically have the interest and resources to fund a legal challenge to this? Here's my list, but please add any suggestions, even if they might be longshots:
The Mazamas have been advocating against these regulations. We do lots of climbs in this area; can you imagine how much it'll cost to have a climbing party of ten attempt Middle Sister in early June? And how useless that is?

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bobcat
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by bobcat » November 18th, 2018, 8:52 pm

Guy wrote:
One more point regarding overuse. I first climbed the South Sister from Devils lake in 1987 & have done it some 25 times since. There was far more trail braiding and damage in the 80's and early 90s on this route than there is now.
Agreed. In fact the Forest Service did a great job of cleaning up Jefferson Park and Green Lakes, allotting designated campsites, etc. They are in better shape than they were 20 years ago.

There is overuse in a few areas, but it's not really day hikers, thru hikers, or multi-day loop backpackers who have the greatest impact. It's hikers who go in 5-10 miles and spend only a night or two, coming out the same way. Only a few trailheads really support that kind of excursion (Green Lakes, Breitenbush Lake are examples). As a compromise, I'd support some sort of permit/quota system on a handful of trailheads like that for overnighters only.

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