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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 2:40 pm
by adamschneider
Those of you who are howling the loudest about this, I have a serious question:
What would be YOUR solution?
...or do you not think that there's a problem?
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 3:03 pm
by retired jerry
Build more designated campsites on the trail to Broken Top so Green Lakes isn't so crowded, make parking areas larger
Communicate to users that Green Lakes is busy so if you want more of a Wilderness experience go off season, mid week, and/or some other location
Just using Green Lakes as an example
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 3:36 pm
by adamschneider
retired jerry wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 3:03 pm
make parking areas larger
But the problem they're trying to solve is overuse of wilderness areas. More parking wouldn't help that.
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 3:51 pm
by cunningkeith
adamschneider wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 2:40 pm
What would be YOUR solution?
Simple: Demonstrate where there is overuse and implement a quota if absolutely necessary.
But don't arbitrarily tag the entire wilderness with quotas (79 Trailheads!!!).
And I don't buy the argument that you need to restrict the entire wilderness to avoid displacement. LEAs have been used successfully in Washington and Oregon to protect popular, fragile areas. For example, there is a quota for the Enchantments but not for the rest of Alpine Lakes. In Utah, you need a special permit to backpack Coyote Gulch but most of the rest of Grand Staircase is wide open. Why are Oregon land managers going with a "solution" that will exclude the most people from using public land?
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 3:57 pm
by adamschneider
cunningkeith wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 3:51 pm
For example, there is a quota for the Enchantments but not for the rest of Alpine Lakes. In Utah, you need a special permit to backpack Coyote Gulch but most of the rest of Grand Staircase is wide open.
I don't know about Coyote Gulch, but one thing that's different about the Enchantments is that they're geographically isolated. If it was easy to stroll in there from another trailhead, maybe they'd do it differently. Down in Oregon, our mountains are less rugged and allow for a lot more flexibility once you enter the wilderness. Imagine if they only put restrictions on Devil's Lake and Green Lakes; you really don't think people would just go in from Todd Lake or Broken Top (or Three Creeks or Park Meadow or Pole Creek) instead? Where would you draw the line?
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 4:35 pm
by retired jerry
"But the problem they're trying to solve is overuse of wilderness areas. More parking wouldn't help that."
If you're talking about trails or campsites where soil is compacted and vegetation trampled, then harden the trails and campsites. Have signs telling people why they should stay on the trails. Each designated campsite should have level spot(s) for tent(s) so people don't go trampling all over the place.
If you're talking about impact on animals and the Wilderness over-all, if you concentrate the people in a few areas, the rest of the Wilderness will still be intact.
If you're talking about people not getting a Wilderness experience, communicate where the busy areas are and warn people not to go there summer weekends if they want solitude.
Have rangers go through on summer weekends to remind people what the rules are.
The Forest Service should figure out how to accommodate the users, not just give up
"A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." is in conflict with the requirement that they provide access for human recreation. Do your best to balance those.
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 4:44 pm
by cunningkeith
adamschneider wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 3:57 pm
Where would you draw the line?
We already know how to do this. Pamelia LEA and Obsidian LEA have been pretty successful. If Green Lakes and Jeff need it, fine. But not 79 trailheads!
You asked how to keep people from crossing over into the protected areas. Well, again, that's been done with Pamelia and Obsidian. But there's no need to exclude people from and charge them for using vast swaths of wilderness.
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 4:52 pm
by Guy
adamschneider wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 12:02 pm
Overall, I think these changes are going to piss off overnighters way more than day hikers. Us non-backpackers really aren't affected much.
Day use looks pretty restrictive to me Adam. A few examples: Only 14 proposed day permits from Breitenbush Lake! The idea that the trail from Breitenbush up to park ridge can only support 14 people a day seems ludicrously low. You can hike to a ton of different places from the easily accessible Todd Lake yet that has a proposal of 12 permits a day. 3 or 4 cars at most trailheads based on these numbers!
Climbing the South Sister from Devils lake is limited to 100 a day, since there is no out of season car access to Devils Lake less people will be able to climb the South Sister in a year than can currently climb Mt St Helens.
The whole thing seems to be way more restrictive than it needs to or should be.
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 5:27 pm
by jessbee
adamschneider wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 12:02 pm
Overall, I think these changes are going to piss off overnighters way more than day hikers. Us non-backpackers really aren't affected much.
Uh not really.
I live in Bend, where I've got a 30-minute drive to a bunch of trail access points in Three Sisters wilderness. If I have an afternoon off and want to take a quick hike on a trail that no one else is on, now I've got to pay for a permit every single time I do that? All of the THs on Cascade Lakes Highway will have a day use permit/quota. Instead I have to drive an hour and a half to two hours to the other side of the wilderness to take a day hike? Not going to happen.
Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...
Posted: November 15th, 2018, 5:32 pm
by jessbee
retired jerry wrote: ↑November 15th, 2018, 4:35 pm
"But the problem they're trying to solve is overuse of wilderness areas. More parking wouldn't help that."
If you're talking about trails or campsites where soil is compacted and vegetation trampled, then harden the trails and campsites. Have signs telling people why they should stay on the trails. Each designated campsite should have level spot(s) for tent(s) so people don't go trampling all over the place.
If you're talking about impact on animals and the Wilderness over-all, if you concentrate the people in a few areas, the rest of the Wilderness will still be intact.
If you're talking about people not getting a Wilderness experience, communicate where the busy areas are and warn people not to go there summer weekends if they want solitude.
Have rangers go through on summer weekends to remind people what the rules are.
The Forest Service should figure out how to accommodate the users, not just give up
"A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." is in conflict with the requirement that they provide access for human recreation. Do your best to balance those.
Jerry for President
.
This is the best post I've seen on this issue so far. There are definitely better solutions. Hope you'll send in your comments on this round too! I know I will.