Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Use this forum to post links to news stories from other websites - ones that other hikers might find interesting. This is not intended for original material or anecdotal information. You can reply to any news stories posted, but do not start a new thread without a link to a specific news story.
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BurnsideBob
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by BurnsideBob » May 27th, 2019, 1:20 pm

In Post #1 Charley wrote:
How much is this going to cost us pesky citizen hikers? Well, they won't tell us now, because that's a separate decision making process. That means we'll get to find out later, after they've already decided to impose these restrictions, exactly how much we have to fork over to visit Green Lakes for the afternoon or whatever.
Proposed Fees and public comment period announced:

https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate ... get-public

Yours, Burnside
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jessbee
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by jessbee » May 27th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Thanks for that link. I missed that.

Quote from the article:

"Fees collected through the system will help fund trail crews to maintain and clean the routes."

Uh huh, I'd like to see the math on that one. To be able to pay recreation.gov, enforce the new rules, and have enough leftover for trail maintenance? Permits would have to be prohibitively expensive.
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Water
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Water » May 27th, 2019, 8:57 pm

I don't even have much to say... Lol @ permit supporters through the years. Enjoy the endless permits and fees. FS talks out of both sides of their mouth, during the entire proposal and review process they said the costs would fund enforcement. Now that they're severely limiting access, the 'new' funds will go for trail maintenance, and what money they were previously using for that.. will go somewhere else. And 'clean the routes'? Wtf does that even mean?

So these permits will fund enforcement and trail maintenance.. but won't be too expensive?

I think the FS is setting themselves up for this to blow up in their face. I foresee legal challenge and lack of compliance. No way they can maintain enforcement in over 500,000 acres of wilderness.
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retired jerry
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by retired jerry » May 28th, 2019, 4:28 am

they could put tickets on vehicles

nice how they morphed to the fees will go to trail maintenance, that will sell better

I heard news stories on several TV and radio stations. They just reported what the FS said.

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Guy
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Guy » May 28th, 2019, 5:36 am

Chiyoko & I just got back from a few days hiking in Sedona and it struck me how such a trip to say Bend under the new rules would not even be worth the bother.

$15.00 got us a week TH parking pass, that was all we needed. Trails are busier that Central Oregon, some like Devils Bridge make Green Lakes look deserted! Again timing is everything we did this trail at 6:30 am and it was lovely.

All that being said we hiked a total of about 40 miles and saw 2 pieces of trash total. No used TP no Dog poop in bags, NONE! If the TH required a pass you could always buy it there or it was free. Toilets were permanent structures and clean.

We decided what trails we would hike each day based on the weather that day. Such a trip for an out of state person coming to Bend next year will be next to impossible. Imagine having to decide what trails you were going to hike months in advance, then apply for date specific permits. Who will bother with all that, this will finish Bend as a destination hiking town.
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Charley
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Charley » May 28th, 2019, 7:37 am

Guy wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 5:36 am
We decided what trails we would hike each day based on the weather that day. Such a trip for an out of state person coming to Bend next year will be next to impossible. Imagine having to decide what trails you were going to hike months in advance, then apply for date specific permits. Who will bother with all that, this will finish Bend as a destination hiking town.
This is why I'm surprised the Bend tourism and travel industry has not practically burned down the town with protest. Don't they realize the huge impacts this will have? It's going to be incredibly complicated just to go on a dayhike. It may be that DeFazio and Walden will make a stink at some point, but then I don't understand why they've let the FS get so far in this process.

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Bosterson
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Bosterson » May 28th, 2019, 8:51 am

Water wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 8:57 pm
Now that they're severely limiting access, the 'new' funds will go for trail maintenance, and what money they were previously using for that.. will go somewhere else. And 'clean the routes'? Wtf does that even mean?
Please, the FS has previously been using zero funds for trail maintenance. Hence the reliance on volunteer contracts with orgs like TKO. The FS's budget is so diminished due to Congressional underfunding ("austerity!") and having to spend their money fighting fires during the season we used to call "summer" that it's not surprising they would have nothing left over to do their actual job (see: trail closures rather than trail maintenance) That said, it's sad to see laid bare how blatant of a cash grab this permit system is meant to be. Ostensibly it's about preserving "solitude" and "wilderness character" and other abstract nonsense, but as you note, they'd previously said the "extra" funds would be for "enforcement," and now they're already counting the extra dollars for doing normal FS business like maintaining the trail system. That does seem likely to backfire, since noncompliance and reduced demand/usage due to the permits seem like they'll take a bite out of whatever extra money the FS thought they were going to get. I can't imagine there'll be much left over for trails, per usual.

Re "clean the routes," I think that's a quote from the article, rather than from the FS? I'm guessing the journalist made that up, so I wouldn't read too much into it - journalists are generally terrible at describing hiking, trails, the outdoors, etc using words that actually make sense. The FS seems to think it will get enough revenue from these permits to pay someone to go pick up trash - and they'll have to hire a new ranger to do that, since presumably all the existing rangers will now be spending 100% of their days "guarding" the THs to ensure permit compliance... ;)
So these permits will fund enforcement and trail maintenance.. but won't be too expensive?
:lol:
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jessbee
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by jessbee » May 28th, 2019, 8:55 am

Charley wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 7:37 am

This is why I'm surprised the Bend tourism and travel industry has not practically burned down the town with protest. Don't they realize the huge impacts this will have? It's going to be incredibly complicated just to go on a dayhike. It may be that DeFazio and Walden will make a stink at some point, but then I don't understand why they've let the FS get so far in this process.
I disagree. People who come to Bend have money to burn. So if anything it will just shift who's hiking the trails: wealthy tourists, not local residents. The tourism agencies want more wealthy visitors who will spend money, not those looking for a cheap vacation.

Visit Bend has been supportive of the FS through this whole process. It is only the cheap, unorganized hikers who are making a fuss about it (including myself).

I have a feeling that there will be plenty of civil disobedience among the latter group. And since they'll be spending money to "clean the trails" (nice catch Water), there won't be any money left to enforce the permit.
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cunningkeith
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by cunningkeith » May 28th, 2019, 12:15 pm

Apparently, they're going to do a lot with these fees! The FS has already said they'd spend the money on the following (see full quotes below):
  • "expanded office hours"
  • "additional rangers"
  • "trail maintenance"
Glad this wasn't about money. 😊

"Visitor compliance is one of many activities we expect to be able to expand, with the approval of a stewardship fee for wilderness use (in addition to visitor education, trail maintenance, and expanded office hours)." DN at 12

"The action alternatives also include an increased ranger presence at trailheads and primary destination points such as Green Lakes to interact with the public and promote sustainable use." EA at 114

"Additional rangers can help mitigate the continuation of high use in some areas. With ranger presence, education and compliance go up." DN at 12

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Guy
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Re: Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

Post by Guy » May 28th, 2019, 1:39 pm

jessbee wrote:
May 28th, 2019, 8:55 am

Visit Bend has been supportive of the FS through this whole process.
I'm blown away by this, I still believe Bend is finished as a destination for out of state hikers. what I had not considered is that Bend doesn't care if hikers come or not.

After my very positive experiences in Arizona last week including with USFS personal at the visitor center They could actually answer my questions about trial conditions) I'm even more fed up with our situation here in NW Oregon.
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