Visit the Central Cascades while you still can...

[retired jerry]

"I assume that someone who knows how to do legal research has determined that the Forest has the legal authority to charge the fees that they are proposing to enforce the restrictions on access."

They do it in other Wilderness areas, like in the Sierras

[Aimless]

This is basically a done deal. Maybe when they release their plan, if there's enough protest, they might reconsider.

Quite so. The FS for Willamette and Deschutes want this to happen and it will definitely happen. There may be some final reshaping of the details, but they will not make any major changes. If, once they implement it, there is a strong enough wave of indignant protests that it looks like a PR disaster, or else if the plan is clearly failing in either its methods or objectives, then I am sure they will consider making major changes. But not right now. All it lacks are some finishing touches before they roll it out.

[Chip Down]

What if NOBODY complied? What if EVERBODY ignored their citations? What if EVERYBODY refused to present ID on demand? Of course, that wont happen, but it's fun to consider.

[Born2BBrad]

What if NOBODY complied? What if EVERBODY ignored their citations? What if EVERYBODY refused to present ID on demand? Of course, that wont happen, but it's fun to consider.

I’ve been following this discussion and had lots of questions that Chip just related to.

What if I refuse to show my ID?
What if I completely ignore a ranger?
Can a ranger physically arrest me and drag me back to the TH?
What if I have a fake ID?
What if I have a fake permit?
What if I say my hiking partner (real or not) who is an hour behind me has the permit?

While I believe that some places at some times (ex: Green Lakes on summer Saturdays) could benefit from limiting the number of people camping, a blanket permit for all activities on all days, including weekdays, is overkill.

That’s my two cents.

[Bosterson]

Brad, I believe rangers are considered "law enforcement agents," and thus you are legally required to comply and obey their orders. As they have guns and are legally allowed to shoot you (with cause, obviously), then they are also allowed to arrest you. That seems unlikely to happen in a permit-fee situation though.

Per the FLREA, 16 U.S. Code § 6811. Enforcement and protection of receipts:

The failure to pay a recreation fee established under this chapter shall be punishable as a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, except that in the case of a first offense of nonpayment, the fine imposed may not exceed $100...

which means that the first time they will fine you $100, and if they catch you again, per 18 U.S. Code § 3571. Sentence of fine:

(b)Fines for Individuals.—Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, an individual who has been found guilty of an offense may be fined not more than the greatest of...
(5) for a Class A misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $100,000;
(6) for a Class B or C misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $5,000...

I'll bet if you did all of your What Ifs at once they could throw the $100,000 class A misdemeanor at you. Let us know how your court case turns out.

[Eric Peterson]

What if NOBODY complied? What if EVERBODY ignored their citations? What if EVERYBODY refused to present ID on demand? Of course, that wont happen, but it's fun to consider.

This.

And just ignore it like Matt said.

[retired jerry]

Maybe just plead ignorance.

If an official asked me for my ID, I would show it to them.

I'd probably just pay a fee because that would be less hassle in the long run. Probably just ignoring any fee demand would work too. It would be a shame if they issued a warrant for you, and then if you were routinely stopped, they arrested you.

[retired jerry]

I just got email from [email protected]

"Dear eligible objectors – thank you for your attendance and participation at the resolution meeting and your interest in this project. The Forest Supervisors listened to many of your concerns and are proposing to make a number of modifications to the final decision in order to address key concerns; please understand that not all concerns can be resolved. See the attached document for the detailed changes. If these changes resolve your objection, please respond within 7 business days (March 29, 2019) stating that the changes resolved all or parts of your objection and that you wish to formally withdraw all or parts your objection based on the resolution presented (please specify what was resolved and what was not resolved). If the proposed changes do not resolve your objection, please respond within 7 business days (March 29, 2019) stating that the changes do not resolve your objection and that you wish for your objection to remain as submitted.



If we do not hear from you within 7 business days (March 29, 2019), your objection will remain as submitted. We will respond to all objections in writing, in the near future. Thank you and please let me know if you have any questions…deb"

attached document:
"Summary of Proposed Changes to the Final Decision
for the Central Cascades Wilderness Strategies Project
In response to the many objectors who wanted fewer restrictions on access, increased opportunities for
spontaneity, and who wanted the permit system to only focus on the high use, highly impacted areas
first, and to rely on adaptive management to address future issues, including potential displacement:
• We will be reducing the number of trailheads that will require limited entry permits for day use,
from 30 trailheads to 19 (the trailheads included in Alternative 3). The trailheads that will no
longer require day use limited entry permits are:
o Mt. Jefferson: Woodpecker, Triangulation, PCT Santiam Pass, Cabot Lake
o Mt. Washington: PCT Big Lake
o Three Sisters: Linton Lake, Lucky Lake, Six Lakes, Elk Lake, Chush Falls, Black Crater
o See attached for a full list of day use trailheads included in the decision
In response to objectors requesting that we shorten the permit season, and to objectors requesting that
we avoid requiring permits during hunting season:
• We will change the season when limited entry permits are required. The limited entry permit
season will now be from Friday of Memorial Day weekend to the last Friday of September. The
draft decision had the permit season ending September 30.
In response to members of the PCT hiking community who had concerns about the Skyline Permit:
• We will no longer include the Skyline Permit. Instead, overnight permit holders will be allowed
to travel between wilderness areas. The travel between wildernesses will be restricted to PCT
trailheads.
The seven (7) items listed below were identified during the objection process as important components
to be included in the implementation of the Final Decision. These items are outside the scope of the
NEPA decision. As part of the implementation process, these items will be further developed and
presented to the public as part of the fee determination phase of the project, scheduled to begin in May
2019. The public will have the opportunity to learn more about and comment on each of these items as
well as the proposed permit fee during the summer of 2019 (June through September):
• We will propose an annual pass option;
• We will create a volunteer pass, to recognize individuals who invest a substantial amount of
time in support of wilderness stewardship;
• Kids 12 and under will not be required to pay the wilderness stewardship fee;
• We will work with partner organizations to make passes/permits available to underserved
communities;
• For both day use and overnight permits, a portion will be reservable at the beginning of the
season, and a portion will only be made available the day before;
• We will continue to engage with partners to expand education efforts around Leave No Trace
and wilderness ethics;
• The Deschutes National Forest will continue to explore options for new high elevation trails
outside of Wilderness to accommodate increased use on nearby public lands. Potential locations
include Tumalo Mountain, Mt Bachelor"

[Bosterson]

In response to the many objectors who wanted fewer restrictions on access, increased opportunities for
spontaneity, and who wanted the permit system to only focus on the high use, highly impacted areas
first, and to rely on adaptive management to address future issues, including potential displacement:

• We will be reducing the number of trailheads that will require limited entry permits for day use,
from 30 trailheads to 19 (the trailheads included in Alternative 3). The trailheads that will no
longer require day use limited entry permits are:
o Mt. Jefferson: Woodpecker, Triangulation, PCT Santiam Pass, Cabot Lake
o Mt. Washington: PCT Big Lake
o Three Sisters: Linton Lake, Lucky Lake, Six Lakes, Elk Lake, Chush Falls, Black Crater

I'm still going through their revision, but it looks like that for day use, the Draft Decision put day use quotas on 30 THs in all 3 wildernesses combined, which was 37%; it has been reduced to 19, which is 23%.

The change in day use quotas breaks down as follows (listed as a proportion of all the eligible THs in that wilderness):

Three Sisters: 33% > 21%
Mt Jefferson: 50% > 32%
Mt Washington: 30% > 20%

[Chip Down]

Ah, so Woodpecker (Jefferson) is off the table. That was just crazy. Nobody goes there. It's as if USFS just put it (and others) on the list as a planned sacrifice, so they could show that they're listening to feedback.