$36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

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Guy
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Guy » May 21st, 2018, 5:24 am

Aimless wrote:
May 20th, 2018, 8:39 pm
My understanding is that the courts usually manage damage claims that, if claimed in a lump sum would bankrupt the person upon whom the claims are placed, by creating a payback plan that allows the payee to live on restricted means while paying out the award. Because this perpetrator was a minor, there are often allowances for expunging a conviction when they reach 18; this may possibly also wipe out the victim's ability to collect, but I cannot say if it does or doesn't. A lot of extremely vindictive laws against minors were passed in the last few decades, so it's hard to know what kind of sword will be hanging over this kid for the next 70+ years.
As a general rule I'm not in favor of trying minors as adults that's why we have different rules for both. That being said though I would definitely not be in favor of this being expunged from his record when he turns 18. That would be a mockery to the severity of what happened.
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Bosterson
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Bosterson » May 21st, 2018, 2:30 pm

Well, that's settled.
Hood River County Circuit Judge John A. Olson wrote in an opinion released Monday that the court awards restitution totaling about $36,618,330 on behalf of Eagle Creek fire victims including the U.S. Forest Service and Oregon Department of Transportation. Olson also noted that the court could appoint a supervising authority or agency to develop a payment plan for the teen.

He also cited "safety valves" in state law, including one that allows payments to stop after 10 years if a juvenile defendant completes probation, doesn't commit other offenses and complies with payment plans.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-north ... _fire.html

I can't wait for the follow-up article once they set up a payment plan based on the kid's lawnmowing income during the summer.
Jack Morris [the kid's lawyer] noted "the court's hands were tied by the statute with respect to ordering the full amount of the legally appropriate restitution" and that a "rational" sum would be suitable but that "it's difficult to imagine anything more pointless then [sic] ordering an adolescent to pay 36 million in restitution."
I'm liking the lawyer's penchant for irreverent outrage at how stupid this is. BTW, nice job on the grammar, Oregonian. Proofreading is for schmucks.
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Guy
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Guy » May 21st, 2018, 3:01 pm

Actually I think I'k OK with this, Stupid as it is leaving it at 36 million but having him pay what I'm sure will be a small portion of his income for 10 years and then have the debt wiped clean isn't a bad deal.

I do think he (not his parents) needed to pay something over time even if it's $50.00 a month in recognition of so many people who suffered financial hardship through job loss etc.
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Bosterson » May 21st, 2018, 3:47 pm

Guy wrote:
May 21st, 2018, 3:01 pm
I do think he (not his parents) needed to pay something over time even if it's $50.00 a month in recognition of so many people who suffered financial hardship through job loss etc.
To quote the immortal words of Some Kind of Wonderful, "The money's gone, you can't get it back." If, as you suggest, the kid were to pay $50/month for the next 10 years (until the debt is "forgiven"), he will, in the end, pay $6000. I would like to note that in terms of the "maths" at work here, that is 0.016% of the $36,618,330 he has been ordered to "repay." Let us not consider the administrative costs of depositing his checks or keeping tabs on his balance or ensuring he's sent threatening letters if his payments are late, or whatever. I'm pretty sure that will send the net repayment amount below 1/100th of a percent.

We should stop deluding ourselves that consequences are best served if they "hurt." We should also stop deluding ourselves that taking people's money is a better solution than other options. (The firefighting fees are gone. The "lost" economic activity is gone.) I would much rather see the kid spend every weekend doing anti-wildfire outreach, rebuilding trails, and going to testify at the Washington legislature about why their state needs to ban fireworks since asking people nicely to bring them across the border doesn't seem to be working. There are many, many things that could be done to prevent fires like this in the future, and minuscule "restitution" accomplishes exactly zero of them.

I was shocked to read the NWHikers thread about this and find that the Seattleites are even more bloodthirsty than we are. The narcissism of demanding retribution because someone "destroyed" a forest you personally were attached to is astounding. I'm going to say this again - where is the righteous outrage about mining or logging or access restrictions under the current set of clowns running the Dept of the Interior? (Hi Ryan Zinke!) Where is the outrage about governmental inaction on global warming, which - hello! - is responsible for the existence of a new yearly season (previously called "summer") that's nothing but forest fires? I'm guessing the answer is that those issues are big, and people feel powerless, and being outraged at a kid (who did something very very stupid, obviously) just feels good. :roll:
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by retired jerry » May 21st, 2018, 3:49 pm

Sort of a ridiculous fine, but whatever...

Yeah, $50 a month for 10 years would be good

Do you know the biggest recipient is the FS?

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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Guy » May 21st, 2018, 4:02 pm

Bosterson wrote:
May 21st, 2018, 3:47 pm
Guy wrote:
May 21st, 2018, 3:01 pm
I do think he (not his parents) needed to pay something over time even if it's $50.00 a month in recognition of so many people who suffered financial hardship through job loss etc.
To quote the immortal words of Some Kind of Wonderful, "The money's gone, you can't get it back." If, as you suggest, the kid were to pay $50/month for the next 10 years (until the debt is "forgiven"), he will, in the end, pay $6000. I would like to note that in terms of the "maths" at work here, that is 0.016% of the $36,618,330 he has been ordered to "repay." Let us not consider the administrative costs of depositing his checks or keeping tabs on his balance or ensuring he's sent threatening letters if his payments are late, or whatever. I'm pretty sure that will send the net repayment amount below 1/100th of a percent.
I guess we just disagree on this one Nat, I don't want him to pay it all back, I don't want it to hurt. I do think a 15 year old can learn a valuable lesson about consequences and financial responsibility by paying a percentage of his income towards restitution for a period of time (5-10 years). He'll be done with by 25 if he's serious about putting this behind him.

I would rather see him out on the trails too but this is in addition to and not instead of his community service right? It's true that the economic opportunity is gone but the consequences for many small businesses and individuals including the payback of borrowed money because of the fire is not.

Just my point of view.
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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by squidvicious » May 21st, 2018, 7:12 pm

Bosterson wrote:
May 21st, 2018, 3:47 pm
I would much rather see the kid spend every weekend doing anti-wildfire outreach, rebuilding trails...
He did get that, back in the sentencing phase of the trial that wrapped up in February--five years of probation and 1,920 hours of community service with the USFS, plus writing letters of apology to the individuals trapped in the fire and, well, pretty much half the state from the sound of it. Restitution is separate, and isn't about preventing future fires.

No, he's never going to pay 36 million, but if it were 36 thousand I doubt he'd be able to pay that back in ten years either. So the actual figure for the damages is irrelevant in terms of restitution--he'll pay whatever the Hood River Juvenile Department decides is a reasonable payment plan, and if he manages to not be an idiot for ten years that can be the end of it.

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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by RobinB » May 22nd, 2018, 7:55 am

I'm heartened by how much kinder this conversation is than the ones that broke out on the PH Facebook page.
retired jerry wrote:
May 20th, 2018, 6:54 am
The conditions were ripe for a major fire. Could have been caused by anything. It's happened before. It'll happen again.

We are now part of nature.

It will actually make the gorge healthier to have a fire occasionally.

We should work on the forest/human development interface so that human structures aren't burned down when there's a fire.
Thanks, Jerry, this is all really well said. And it's strange to me that so few people seem to be bringing it up: fire's a natural part of the landscape here. Maybe it wouldn't have happened in the same way, but everything else equal, even without the kid, some sort of fire would have broken out eventually.

That's important because the various restitution claims are treating it like this fire (and, by extension: all like events) could be prevented if only humans didn't set them. But, given the history of fire in the west, that's just not true. It's like people are blaming this kid for our not having correctly planned for and tailored our wildland-urban interface to the reality of wildland fire.

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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by retired jerry » May 22nd, 2018, 8:29 am

what's funny is how people (not here, in general) say that it's bad to suppress forest fires, but when one happens we have an overwhelming urge to immediately put it out and do everything possible to avoid it

I was just walking in Mill Creek Wilderness. The north couple miles of the Wildcat trail is totally burned. I found it really interesting. I actually camped in the middle of it, along a stream where there was an unburned strip.

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Re: $36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

Post by Aimless » May 22nd, 2018, 8:49 am

I camped and hiked on the south side of the Strawberry wilderness about six times in eight years as my go-to camping trip in mid-June. I got used to hiking in fully burned forest and in patchwork burns. There's less shade, so I'd recommend doing it earlier in the season, like I did, but I learned to enjoy those hikes quite a bit. There was all the solitude a person could possibly ask for. I'd go five days without seeing another person. The B&B fire area is another one I've hiked in many times since that very large, very hot wildfire. You just come to accept the way it is and find interest in watching the returning life.

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