when is it acceptable to post an "off trail" trip report?

[Koda]

I am still learning the ethic, so I would like to hear what others think about [publicly] posting TR's on "off trail" (or similar) adventures?

My thoughts:
I do several off trail destination trips a year that I do not post... prefer them actually and while I would not mind bumping into like minded ethical hikers out there most places I go I would hate to see the masses destructive footprint. Technology is making it easier and easier to venture out farther, and its my opinion there are some places that are best left to the imagination of those skilled enough to make the trip.

Just curious what others think about the subject?

[Lurch]

I think there are a number of people out there who could definitely benefit from OT reports and adventures. There is one obvious solution that I can think of, but I doubt it would be popular around here. That would be to make a locked forum that people must request access to, and/or be vetted. The forum software is more than capable, of either having a hidden forum that people can request access to, or a publicly visible forum that requires a password to gain access to.

I have a bit of an odd perspective on this, so maybe I should justify my reasoning.

From a SAR perspective, the off trail areas are by and large the most difficult and dangerous scenarios out there. I think this board has a massive impact on the gorge (mostly positive), and the awareness of different areas has grown exponentially over the years. 10 years ago ROA barely noticeable from the trail. Today it's 3' wide and beaten into submission. I don't doubt one bit that this board has played a role in its popularity growth.

The problem comes in when people who don't belong on trails like that, get the mistaken impression that it's a simple hike just like everything else. I can count 3-5 searches in the past 2 years on ROA. Prior to that we've had maybe 2 in the past decade. Moffett Creek is another example, and I hope it never happens, but the RJ could be a SAR nightmare.

That said..

There are plenty of people on there that are more than capable of just about anything the gorge can throw at them. There are secrets out there that have been lost for generations, and to me that is a terrible shame. How many people know that there is a lost waterwheel that was hiked somewhere up Oneonta and stashed away in the bushes, only to be forgotten about and lost for the past 40+ years? I've been collecting data and tracks for years doing my best to catalog all this stuff. Both for my personal curiosity and addiction, and because I know people are out there, pushing into obscure hard to reach places, and I want to know what they're talking about, and how to get to them if they're in need of help. Getting above Wahe is a prime example of that.

I've hard nightmares for years about someone calling in and saying "I'm at <insert obscure landmark> I need help!" and us having no idea where it is.

So perhaps a vetted forum is the best place for that type of thing. A place where people can post with the assurance that others who see it will be equally obsessed / able to use the information appropriately and safely. I keep coming to this board because it gives back, hopefully I can contribute some helpful bits now and then too.

[pyles_94]

I like seeing the reports and benefit from them often, so I reciprocate and post reports (most of the time) in hopes to benefit someone else.

[Grannyhiker]

Lurch's idea of a vetted forum has a few problems: (1) it requires a lot more volunteer moderator work and (2) it won't stop idiots from falsifying their "qualifications."

In addition, we want maximum publicity for lost trails to pressure the USFS and others to restore them and get them working again. The Perdition Trail is a prime example. There's also the problem of the Timberline Trail (pre-Dollar Lake fire), which is officially closed at Eliot Creek and requires considerable off-trail skills to get around. Shouldn't all Timberline Trail reports be in Off-Trail?

IMHO, I can't see that the entrance to the Rock of Ages trail is any more worn down now than it was in 2001, 5 years before this forum started. At least it certainly was very obvious back then. True, it wasn't so obvious in 1989 when I wanted to try it. ROA has been a featured trail in guidebooks since the Lowes' first edition in the early 1980's. It is also a regular trip for several hiking groups. Like Ruckel Ridge (which I have done), it's technically not an established trail and involves scrambling, but because the route has been in use for so long it is considered such. Finally, I haven't seen that many reports for ROA on this forum.

A warning about not attempting off-trail routes without experience, proper gear and off-trail navigation ability might be a good idea. It might not stop the idiots, but it would at least reduce possible liability exposure for PH.org.

Considering that more people get in trouble on the large number of idiot-made "social trails" around waterfalls and cutting across switchbacks, I don't think our "off-trail" forums will make that much difference.

[Koda]

I like seeing the reports and benefit from them often, so I reciprocate and post reports (most of the time) in hopes to benefit someone else.

I think all of us here benefit from off trail reports but are there any ethics involved with creating more user impact? Those of us regulars here are a minority to the public at large of which this forum is open.

Lurch's points from a SAR perspective are a big factor too. Then entertaining the idea of a locked forum if you do lock the forum, you lock out new people that do have the same ethics and skill set. (can I reserve my membership? ) One idea perhaps is if there is a way to create TR's that leave in tact the objective, but omit the required off line research to complete the hike.... IOW save the adventure for the next adventurer. A good example of what I mean is a place called the Devils Staircase....

[Lurch]

A much less restrictive option would be to limit the forums visibility to registered / logged in members only. Meaning you don't need special permission, but you need to at least be a member of the forum

[Thum]

I go back and forth on this issue for all the reasons stated above. Before I was alive you would have had to be incredibly adventurous or know someone knowledgable about a certain area to reach so many of the places people post about. I guess thats what made them all the more special. Now, a web search can generate so much of this information.


I got all excited after our larj adventure last sat. and started posting maps / links that werent even mine(lurch) and I still feel bad about it. The steepness/roughness of a lot of these trails really does require more skill and physical abilities than a lot of other maintained trails. But like granny hiker said, trails are being lost due to lack of maintanence/travel and if we dont make noise about them and show that we care, they will just fade away. The RoA trail and even the russ jolley were easier to follow at many points than the moffett creek trail. And the moffets on every map of the gorge I have.

[Eric Peterson]

The RoA trail and even the russ jolley were easier to follow at many points than the moffett creek trail. And the moffets on every map of the gorge I have.

I haven't done Moffet Creek and now I will have to! Good point Thum. I don't think you should feel
bad about posting those maps of the RJ, they were already posted and searchable IIRC. I think
as long as no one sticks up a gps track of the RJ then everything will be fine, or maybe not since
they might get lost without the gps track and Lurch will have to go fetch them.

There was some nice fresh muddy boot prints too last Saturday up there, there's more than just
a few people using the RJ guys.

BTW, I think it's acceptable to post a off trail TR in the Off Trail section almost any time!
If it wasn't, then why have this section?

[Guy]

I can certainly see both side of the argument here but I always come down in favor of posting reports. I have certainly benefited enormously from the off trail posts of others so like to pay back when I can.

How much information is given away in the report as to location etc, can be up to the poster & the sensitivity of the area. For me if the report gives no clues on how I can find out more about the route then I am going to be significantly less interested in reading it!

Lurches suggestion below seems like a good happy medium to me.

A much less restrictive option would be to limit the forums visibility to registered / logged in members only. Meaning you don't need special permission, but you need to at least be a member of the forum

[mayhem]

I say if you have been there post it! I don't care if it was cliff diving to get there! If you did it do a TR! I cannot believe this is even asked? Sorry but it reminds me of the Mcdonalds Hot coffee spill!