The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Discussions and Trip Reports for off-trail adventures and rediscovering lost trails
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chameleon
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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by chameleon » June 7th, 2009, 7:22 am

That's a good point on retrievable anchors. While a bit trickier for sure, they certainly are easiest on the environment. That's very intersting on the conversation you had with a gorge recreation employee. With so many big fish to fry...including the huge casino planned in Cascade locks, the horrendous litter and polution from roads, such as the road above Bridal Veil creek, the CO2 emmisions from boats and cars in the Gorge leading to acid rain that's threatening local amphibian species, etc... you'd think the "official" stance would be very supportive of environmentally minded pursuits such as canyoneering and "wading and swimming."

Afterall, the inspiration for most of the trails we have today in the Gorge came from early "canyoneers," such as those whose sense of adventure led them to explore Eagle Creek. That being said, I can certainly understand her concern about kayakers and others on Metlako! That's born more of a safety concern though.

I'd suspect her concerns are more born from her own lack of familiarity with pursuits other than those she herself enjoys. It certainly does not reflect anything official as documented in wilderness acts, etc... And she may even have a point with waterfalls such as Multnomah, where rappelling, climbing etc... is prohibited, for good reasons, safety and the enjoyment of others (people photographing it from below, etc...). For backcountry canyons, they should be promoting safe and environmentally friendly enjoyment of these wild areas.

If she really wants to make a positive difference for these backcountry canyons...there is one thing that would really help - making it illegal to release balloons in the Gorge, as seems to be happening often at Multnomah falls, Cascade Locks, etc... and pieces of balloons from these parties, etc... can be found as litter even in the wildest and most remote of gorge locales. Very sad to be out there enjoying a truly wild experience and come across a wedding or birthday balloon!

-Zach

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OneSpeed
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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by OneSpeed » June 8th, 2009, 7:36 pm

Sore Feet wrote:Self-publish. You won't necessarily get the circulation that you would through someone like Falcon or The Mountaineers, but you're guaranteed the final product will look as you intended it without any compromises (and its not hard to get the book listed in the major distribution channels or online). I'm going the self-publishing route for my Waterfall guidebooks (slowly), and I'm also doing the design and production work for my friend's book on Waterfalls in Vermont. I've spent some time comparing the various POD services out there (Booksurge, Lightning Source and Lulu are the ones I'm looking at), and there are some substantial differences, so if you're interested, shoot me an email and I'll toss you some details. I'd be glad to do the production work if you want some help with the layout and design - I'd really like to start doing print publishing on a more regular basis and right now I have nothing to pad my portfolio with.
I'd like to jump in on this, since I have published a book and started a company to do so. My breakfast guidebook has sold 1,800 copies in September 1, after a print run of 2,000 books.

But here's the thing: I didn't use an online publisher or POD or anything. And it is my strong impression and belief that you will sell very few books that way. Look into digital printing: slightly more per book, but at low numbers you can get a decent price and quality. Also, if you want to get into bookstores or outdoor shops, you'll have a much better chance with a book printed in higher quality than you're likely to get from a POD/online shop.

My printing was about $2.70 per book, by the way, plus some shipping from Illinois. Took a month.

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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by OneSpeed » June 8th, 2009, 7:39 pm

I meant to refer you to the Northwest Association of Book Publishers at NWABP.org. A great group of small press folks, as well as designers, editors, and a print broker specializing in books. They meet at Fairfield Inn, Lake Oswego, last Thursday of the month 11 to 1. Great group where I learned all I know about publishing, and I think the first visit is free. Might be $10.

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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by Sore Feet » June 8th, 2009, 7:52 pm

OneSpeed wrote: I'd like to jump in on this, since I have published a book and started a company to do so. My breakfast guidebook has sold 1,800 copies in September 1, after a print run of 2,000 books.

But here's the thing: I didn't use an online publisher or POD or anything. And it is my strong impression and belief that you will sell very few books that way. Look into digital printing: slightly more per book, but at low numbers you can get a decent price and quality. Also, if you want to get into bookstores or outdoor shops, you'll have a much better chance with a book printed in higher quality than you're likely to get from a POD/online shop.

My printing was about $2.70 per book, by the way, plus some shipping from Illinois. Took a month.
I think you have a different idea in mind when I say Print on Demand. The quality from the printers I've investigated is what you'd expect to see from any of the big name vanity publishers. That was my big concern in the first place when I started looking into this stuff, I don't want my product to look like it was made at home. All the testimony I've seen from people who have published with Booksurge, Lulu or Lightning Source have been largely positive in regard to the quality of production (those that were negative seem to have been a function of using shoddy images in the first place, or relied on the in-house production staff to do the layout work, and being a graphic design pro, I'll be doing all that myself).

I've got a couple of obscure waterfall guidebooks that were made using POD / Digital services and aside from the production quality (which is again a result of the design and layout being in the hands of an amateur), they are fine products. As far as distribution and sales, yeah, you probably won't sell as many through a do-it-yourself method as you would through a vanity press, but speaking for myself, I'm not doing this to make money, I'm doing this because its been a goal of mine for a long time. I'm sure Zach probably feels the same way. With a little promotion to the right groups (REI, Northwest Interpretive Association, etc.) plus some web marketing, it won't be hard to sell them.

ken leibert
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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by ken leibert » June 9th, 2009, 3:19 pm

What is the Mystery trail that Pablo referred to?

Ken Leibert

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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by OneSpeed » June 9th, 2009, 4:03 pm

Sore Feet wrote:I think you have a different idea in mind when I say Print on Demand. The quality from the printers I've investigated is what you'd expect to see from any of the big name vanity publishers. That was my big concern in the first place when I started looking into this stuff, I don't want my product to look like it was made at home. All the testimony I've seen from people who have published with Booksurge, Lulu or Lightning Source have been largely positive in regard to the quality of production
It would be interesting to compare, as much as possible, what you have versus a Vanity Press versus what I have, which is a traditionally self-published book, i.e. not through a third-party press at all, but resulting from me hiring a designer and contracting with a book printer in Illinois for a run of 2,000 books. This isn't vanity press; it's independent publishing.
One thing I always tell people if they say they want to publish a book is that the first question you have to ask yourself is do you want to make money, or do you just want to publish a book. And you've already answered that question for yourself. I came to be in it for the money, so I wanted the best quality I could get at the best price (for my quantity).

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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by Sore Feet » June 9th, 2009, 5:07 pm

^ Another point to consider is what kind of book it is. When dealing with a real niche market as I will be and as Zach will be as well, you know who you have to market to and where you will likely get the best impact, and having that identified, its easier to market. If you're writing a fictional novel or something similar, you're got your work cut out.

The reason I don't want to / can't go straight to a printer is the up front cost. I've ruled out Lulu for my needs solely because in order to do a 200 page 6x9" book in color, printing costs would be almost $40 a piece (1000 copies would cost me twice what I paid for my car), and you won't see any comparable guidebook selling for more than $30 at most.

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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by chameleon » June 9th, 2009, 5:45 pm

Great info guys! I'm in a very similar position to Bryan's - getting a book published has been a goal of mine for a while, but it's also with the hope of making some money with writing/photography, as is Onespeed's goal. I work in a profession (Animal Care) where the salaries kind of suggest you need additional sources of income. It's one of those fields where you really have to love what you do because you won't make much money, and at 30 years old now I need to figure out some supplemental income (still paying student loans, car bills, etc...).

So my hope is to somehow turn my love of the outdoors/wilderness into a bit of side income as a writer/photographer and at the same time promote a love for the wilderness. Being single and in love with waterfalls and the Gorge right now, I'm figuring to give it a go with this canyoneering book, and another I'm writing as a series of essays on why wilderness matters. Doesn't leave much time for a social life. :? , but that can always come later right?? :) Truth be told, my recent 30th birthday (last month) kind of lit a fire under me...it seems to be the age where you're finally supposed to be grown up and have "made it." So I have this "Oh crap" I better get going mentality at the moment.

Bryan, I can't wait to work with you at some point now when I have the canyoneering contents all compiled! And Onespeed, be sure I'll be picking your brain at times too! Right now I have a lot of admiration for the level you've reached, having published and been down that road a bit!

-Zach

p.s. Ken - I'm not sure what that trail is Pablo has mentioned. Perhaps I'll pm him and see. I'd love to check it out. I think it might be something related to a post Don Nelson made a while back about a canyon hike/canyon route in Hawaii??

aywolfpac
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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by aywolfpac » June 10th, 2009, 8:55 am

I can't add a whole lot to this but I've got a little bit of info. A friend of mine wrote a fiction book called "Honest John Churchfield" about an alcoholic, yet very production, detective who lives in the shadow of Sherlock Holmes in London. (Think Sherlock Holmes and Indiana Jones mixed together.) It's a great book if anyone wants to buy it you can find it on Amazon or Lulu.

Anyway, his book is printed by Lulu and I found the quality to be absolutely fine. It's very comparable to a "real" book that you would buy. This book has no pictures so I can't speak to what the photo quality would be like but in this case it was just fine. Don't know if that helps at all.

pablo
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Re: The Four mile falls you haven't seen!

Post by pablo » June 10th, 2009, 5:28 pm

ken leibert wrote:
What is the Mystery trail that Pablo referred to?

Ken Leibert
Mystery Trail is an old climber's route branching north from Rock of Ages Trail - there is a sign marking the trail off Rock of Ages nailed to a tree of which only a small corner is visible - if you don't know the tree, you'll never see it. The route goes north along a ridgeline with 3-4 rappels having anchors as I described above. It comes out at the south side of St Peter's Dome and exits to the 400 via the gully between Rock of Ages and the Dome. I trip reported this a couple of years ago but until content from the old site is resurrected it's unavailable. It's signed after the first rappel and there is a climbers log further down. Pretty tame compared to what Zach is doing but definitely not a hiking trail. The only rappelling I've ever done.

--Paul
The future's uncertain and the end is always near.

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