South Sister Bivy, Aug 12-13

[kepPNW]

Great trip report! How long did it take you to summit the mountain? I am hoping for a sunrise summit in a few weeks and am trying to plan out my timing. Thanks!

Thank you! This trip, I was on the trail at 2:45pm and crested the rim at 7:50pm, so just a shade over 5 hours. Another time, we left the TH at 10:00pm and were on top at 3:50am. In neither case were conditions prime, it being well over 90° this last time and "new moon dark" the other time. After going over the south rim, it's still a half-mile to the actual summit, but very flat-ish relative to what you've just done.

One thing's for sure... The hordes on South Sister utterly destroy all the arguments for capping the number of climbers on Mount St. Helens. It's clearly about nothing but the money there.

Could you please elaborate on your comment here. Thanks.

Boots don't hurt lava. There wasn't human waste all over the mountainside. (I don't even recall seeing a single TP flower!) The limit on MSH climbers is clearly designed to artificially induce demand, such that the permits are sold out for the entire summer season almost instantly. It's simply a fund-raiser for MSHI. The permits also encourage people to take risks they wouldn't normally, making them wrong on multiple levels.

[-Q-]

Great trip report! How long did it take you to summit the mountain? I am hoping for a sunrise summit in a few weeks and am trying to plan out my timing. Thanks!

Thank you! This trip, I was on the trail at 2:45pm and crested the rim at 7:50pm, so just a shade over 5 hours. Another time, we left the TH at 10:00pm and were on top at 3:50am. In neither case were conditions prime, it being well over 90° this last time and "new moon dark" the other time. After going over the south rim, it's still a half-mile to the actual summit, but very flat-ish relative to what you've just done.

One thing's for sure... The hordes on South Sister utterly destroy all the arguments for capping the number of climbers on Mount St. Helens. It's clearly about nothing but the money there.

Could you please elaborate on your comment here. Thanks.

Boots don't hurt lava. There wasn't human waste all over the mountainside. (I don't even recall seeing a single TP flower!) The limit on MSH climbers is clearly designed to artificially induce demand, such that the permits are sold out for the entire summer season almost instantly. It's simply a fund-raiser for MSHI. The permits also encourage people to take risks they wouldn't normally, making them wrong on multiple levels.

I know I am in the minority here, but I actually support the daily cap on msh climbers. The mountain is still recovering from the damage. Its a living laboratory for scientists to study. Truely unique in our country.

If 450 People were climbing up ptarmigan ridge everyday, I fear the negative consequences would be extreme. Sorry, but the general public simply cannot be trusted to follow the rules, not cause damage etc. Its been proven time and time again.

As I know you know, the climb up msh involves Lotsa travel over lava, but it's not nearly the entire route. Probably not even half. The non-lava areas are very sensitive, and need special care.

[kepPNW]

I know I am in the minority here, but I actually support the daily cap on msh climbers. The mountain is still recovering from the damage. Its a living laboratory for scientists to study. Truely unique in our country.

If 450 People were climbing up ptarmigan ridge everyday, I fear the negative consequences would be extreme. Sorry, but the general public simply cannot be trusted to follow the rules, not cause damage etc. Its been proven time and time again.

As I know you know, the climb up msh involves Lotsa travel over lava, but it's not nearly the entire route. Probably not even half. The non-lava areas are very sensitive, and need special care.

I sense your sincerity, but I respectfully disagree. The climbing route is very well defined, and the area simply is not as sensitive as you suggest. There was very little, if any, "damage" to the climbing route from the last eruptive phase, either. Obviously, neither of us can quantify our claims. But guess what? Neither can the USFS or MSHI, when I've asked directly. Lots of hand-waving and talk of feces. (Things to consider... Why is it okay for 500 people to climb in early or mid May, but only 100 in late May? Why are snowmobiles allowed all the way to the rim?)

I'm not sure when you speak of "non-lava areas," if you mean those above (ash) or below (forest)? Nor how they're different from similar areas across our entire region?

Fwiw, I absolutely consider the blastzone to be in a class by itself, and would never lump it - the area actually impacted - into this argument.

[-Q-]

I absolutely agree with you on having different standards for the blast zone. No question there. I do wish the restrictions were much tighter all around the mountain though. Example... I would forbid off trail travel in the plains of Abraham. That's just as sensitive as the pumice plains, but does not have the same restrictions.

Please note... I support a climber cap. I do not necessarily support the MSHI, their thoughts, or all of their policies.

I last summited msh in 2008. Back then I remember the climbing trail being anything other than well defined through the lava zones. Just the opposite. Lots of braided trails leading from once cairn/post to another. I also remember lots of juvenile plants and bushes growing amongst those lava fields. Braided trails plus small plants never mix well.

Honestly, I would cap the number of climbers all year through, all 12 months. Makes no sense to cap it just for the summer. That wreaks of greed by the MSHI ( and why I want to separate a cap discussion from the MSHI values).

By non-lava zone, I was referring to the ash zone. That volcanic ash is very nutrient rich. When it all mixes with the soil, it will eventually be very fertile ground. In that regard, it's very unique to the NW, and needs the highest protection.

Just imagine this... No restrictions of msh climbers, it's a nice sunny and cool july day, the previous day someone posted a sweet summit pic on social media. What do you think happens the next day, and the day after that??
My hunch... A conga line of people, worsening everyday. braided trails increasing, TP flowers increasing. Sensitive habitat dying.

Maybe I am doom and gloom here, but the monument is my favorite place on earth. I don't want to see it ruined like so many other areas by overcrowing and abuse. I would self-ban myself before allowing that to happen.

And yes, I have mainly lost all faith in the general public to be respectful of nature

[kepPNW]

We're not off by much.

I would forbid off trail travel in the plains of Abraham. That's just as sensitive as the pumice plains, but does not have the same restrictions.

I'm not familiar with what that area was like pre-eruption, are you? I'm guessing it was heavily impacted, and probably also undergoing "recovery." So I wouldn't be very opposed to this position, either, if that's the case.

I last summited msh in 2008. Back then I remember the climbing trail being anything other than well defined through the lava zones. Just the opposite. Lots of braided trails leading from once cairn/post to another. I also remember lots of juvenile plants and bushes growing amongst those lava fields. Braided trails plus small plants never mix well.

Yeah, there's some braiding, and there are certainly areas with no clear path. But not a lot. Especially compared to the bulk of the mountain. It's perhaps, what, 0.001% tops? Seems like a very small compromise to potentially build respect for such a magnificent place. And I really don't think having 300 or even 500 people climb on Saturday and Sunday, and only 25 or 50 on weekdays will change the impact a lot. There may actually be more people climbing under the current system, because of the ("already purchased!") permits, than fewer?

Just imagine this... No restrictions of msh climbers, it's a nice sunny and cool july day, the previous day someone posted a sweet summit pic on social media. What do you think happens the next day, and the day after that??
My hunch... A conga line of people, worsening everyday.

This is where our fears and hopes collide. I've seen this in action on South Sister, and the dire consequences you mention just don't seem to be playing out. And to the very small extent they may be, it's entirely restricted to a teensy faction of the volcano.

TP flowers increasing.

Easy button answer! How much do you suppose those composting toilets cost? And how many permits would pay for a couple? We are told, afterall, that those proceeds go "back into the trail!" (Yeah, right!)

[Chip Down]

Seems we're a bit off topic here. But such is the www.

Here's something that drives me crazy: The government takes your money against your will, under threat of torture and violence. They use that money to build roads, trails, lodges, rest stops, and promote the touristy wonderland they've created...then they charge you to use those resources, impose limits on the number of visitors, and impose fines/violence/torture on those who balk at their scheme. And we idly sit by and watch it happen, while politely debating the merits of our oppression. Strange.

If MSH (or whatever) is truly a delicate special resource that must be preserved from the ravaging hordes (and it very well may be; I'm not entirely sarcastic here) then why not lower access by simply declining to build the roads and trails and tourist facilities that encourage people to visit? That would lower the taxes spent, reduce the bureaucratic labyrinth, and force individuals to personally decide if they really want to hike 20 miles to visit the mountain.

But no, far better to develop every place of beauty into a disneyland caricature of nature, and then regulate who gets to go there.

I like my phrase "disneyland caricature of nature"...I vow to use it again in other topics.

[-Q-]

kep,

Ironically, although our opinions on a climber cap are opposite, we do indeed agree on many items regarding msh

I was 5 years old when msh blew, so 100% of my experience is post-euption. I do hope someone joins our discussion who has both pre and post eruption experience. Would lend a very good perspective.

In talking about trail braiding, here is my perspective... Trails braid fast. Sometimes real fast. Speaking of fast, our global and local population is growing real fast. So, take a fast growing population, combine it with fast moving trail braiding, and the result could be braided sprawl.

I do wish the forest service would do some serious work to the trail. Make it apparent, make it clear, make it sustainable. Its easily doable.

When it comes to msh, i look at each side of the mountain as a zone, each one being unique. The southern slopes are unique unto themselves. As are the east, West and North.
Certain zones are stronger, certain ones are much more fragile. The southern slope is much more fragile then the western slope for example.
So while monitor ridge is only a small percentage of the southern slope, it's value is highly increased due to location and fragility.

To me, comparing msh to the SS is Apple's and oranges. Actually, comparing msh to any other peak in the cascades is Apple's and oranges except for Lassen Peak.
SS and the other big volcanoes can handle a ton more people and usage than than msh. In a matter of speaking, they are much 'tougher' mountains physically.

More composting toilets... Yes!!
We agree 100% here.
Would they be unsightly out on the open slopes, yes, but they are Definetly needed.
I feel especially bad for the female population who needs a bit more privacy then guys do. There are many places where privacy is nearly impossible on monitor ridge.

[kepPNW]

Ironically, although our opinions on a climber cap are opposite, we do indeed agree on many items regarding msh

I was 5 years old when msh blew, so 100% of my experience is post-euption. I do hope someone joins our discussion who has both pre and post eruption experience. Would lend a very good perspective.

Sensed that, yep.

I was 20, but hadn't taken the chance to go play up there yet, naturally assuming it'd be there forever.

In talking about trail braiding, here is my perspective... Trails braid fast. Sometimes real fast. Speaking of fast, our global and local population is growing real fast. So, take a fast growing population, combine it with fast moving trail braiding, and the result could be braided sprawl.

Honestly, I see that as a high-potential problem in meadows, but not across blocky lava flows. What's the harm? The "braids" are barely discernable.

Certain zones are stronger, certain ones are much more fragile. The southern slope is much more fragile then the western slope for example.
So while monitor ridge is only a small percentage of the southern slope, it's value is highly increased due to location and fragility.

The western slopes certainly seem more "mature" than the southern ones. But I don't believe that's any reflection whatsoever on what happened in 1980. I think you're seeing the difference between 1000s and 10s of 1000s of years of "recovery" comparing the two. So yeah, the south looks younger, but I don't see why it should be considered more "fragile."

To me, comparing msh to the SS is Apple's and oranges. Actually, comparing msh to any other peak in the cascades is Apple's and oranges except for Lassen Peak.

No climbing limits there, either.

SS and the other big volcanoes can handle a ton more people and usage than than msh. In a matter of speaking, they are much 'tougher' mountains physically.

Those conclusions seem rather subjective.

[-Q-]

Kep,

Those blocky lava fields might appear to be barren, but they are certainly not devoid of life. Tons of little plants have been & continue to take hold. Life is slowly recovering on the southern slopes. Additional trail braids will destroy sensitive habitat for sure.

Yes, the western slope was much less affected by the 1980 eruption. It was severely affected yes, but not so much as the southern slope. The western slope is full of established meadows and trees on it mid reaches. Not the southern slope. It hasn't nearly recovered to that point yet.

The Lassen Peak trail underwent a major 5 year rennovation that was completed in 2014. Monitor ridge has received no such treatment. Despite its largely fragile nature and surrounding areas, Lassen is now much better equiped to handle crowds than msh. The park service did what they needed to do. That hasn't happened on monitor ridge yet.

Also, no off trail travel on lassen peak in summer. Gotta stick to the trail.
On monitor ridge, it's impossible to stick to the trail sometimes, which leads to braided off trail routes.

No, I don't believe my conclusion is subjective. Its based on real world observations. Look at how fast the msh landscape alters from year to year. In geologic terms, it's fast. Compare that to the seasonal changes on SS or hood. It's not even remotely close.

Guess my opinion boils down to this...

In it's current state, I believe the cap is needed.

However, if the trail is renovated and maintained, and a few additional facilities are provided, the cap could be increased or maybe even lifted.

[kepPNW]

Those blocky lava fields might appear to be barren, but they are certainly not devoid of life. Tons of little plants have been & continue to take hold. Life is slowly recovering on the southern slopes. Additional trail braids will destroy sensitive habitat for sure.

Recovering from what, exactly? We'll just have "agree to disagree" I suppose. I've been on Monitor Ridge as recently as three weeks ago. Pretty aware of what's growing there. Just as aware that people aren't really disturbing it in an ecologically detrimental way. And while I can't say with certainty, my observations lead me to question your conclusions that either the south or west sides were impacted much at all in 1980. A lahar or two, but not near this route, and that's about it. Are you aware of any documentation of "damage" to either the west or south sides during the course of human history? (Other than the loss of the top, of course. ) Not wanting to be argumentative; but if it happened, surely it's documented? I'd love to know more.

No, I don't believe my conclusion is subjective. Its based on real world observations. Look at how fast the msh landscape alters from year to year. In geologic terms, it's fast. Compare that to the seasonal changes on SS or hood. It's not even remotely close.

If we were talking the north and east sides, you'd have my full agreement. Not seeing it, at all, on west or south. Generally speaking.

Also, no off trail travel on lassen peak in summer. Gotta stick to the trail.

Last time I was at/climbed Lassen was 1986, so my memories of that place are distant. Even moreso than yours of MSH. We just randomly pulled into the parking lot, and decided on a total whim to walk up to the top. Don't recall much of a trail, even.