Dog Mtn. Permit System Public Participation?

[Guy]

chrisca, we haven't agreed on some things in the past but on this issue I completely agree with you.

I'm also uneasy at the seemingly growing and cozy relationship between USFS and some of the Gorge advocacy groups who I am sure mean well and have good intentions but have their own agendas and ideas of how things should be. Those of us who choose not not belong to one of these groups (actually the majority of hikers) should not be excluded from the decision making process.

[chrisca]

chrisca, we haven't agreed on some things in the past but on this issue I completely agree with you.

I'm also uneasy at the seemingly growing and cozy relationship between USFS and some of the Gorge advocacy groups who I am sure mean well and have good intentions but have their own agendas and ideas of how things should be. Those of us who choose not not belong to one of these groups (actually the majority of hikers) should not be excluded from the decision making process.

Thanks. I respect your opinions, and we're all here because we love the woods and want them managed the right way. Please write or call Lynn Burditt and let her know your thoughts. I'm writing a letter right now. I'll post it here if I can manage to keep it family-friendly. We all need to do that, or we'll end up being sheep with the Forest Service and the nonprofits being the herders.

[xrp]

Hell, people will book things for an extra day ahead to get it over the weekend, and not show up the first day. I even have seen this in state parks, spots booked online and nobody shows up.. it sits empty. That's not good usage.

Are you saying people are paying for 3 nights and only staying the latter two? No doubt the USFS/State Parks see that as good usage. They get 3 nights revenue and nature gets 2 nights human impact.

[justpeachy]

I know that Friends of the Gorge was consulted, but said they didn't believe it was necessary to have a public process. I don't know about TKO, or more importantly, WTA.

I don't know if TKO was consulted since it's focus is Oregon, not Washington. WTA has this to say about the situation (source):

WTA is disappointed that the Forest Service has chosen this approach for the 2018 peak-season, especially given that the Eagle Creek Fire trail closures on the Oregon side of the Columbia Gorge will bring more people to Washington trails, such as Dog Mountain, looking for a place to enjoy the outdoors.

WTA believes day-use hiking permits are a last resort. WTA supports improvements to protect public safety. However, we would like the Forest Service to engage in a broader discussion with stakeholders to identify alternative solutions that ensure everyone has access to Dog Mountain and all the wonderful hikes in the Columbia River Gorge trail system.

This is a vital recreation corridor, even more so with the closures of other trails as a result of the Eagle Creek Fire. We hope that the Forest Service will work to develop a solution that will rise to meet the growing demand and provide access to everyone.

[chrisca]

Another thing I've noticed is that the language on the FS website is: "On Saturdays and Sundays from March 31 to July 1, each individual using the Dog Mountain Trail System will be required to obtain a permit." If this system is to control parking for safety reasons, then each vehicle would need a permit, not each person. So something is fundamentally amiss with the justification for this day-use fee and its implementation (and enforcement.)

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/crgnsa/f ... EPRD572962, third-to-last paragraph.

[Limey]

Instead of charging hikers an extra fee, what would be the downside to putting up guard rail so people can't park on the shoulders? Just a thought.

[Guy]

WTA is disappointed that the Forest Service has chosen this approach for the 2018 peak-season, especially given that the Eagle Creek Fire trail closures on the Oregon side of the Columbia Gorge will bring more people to Washington trails, such as Dog Mountain, looking for a place to enjoy the outdoors.

WTA believes day-use hiking permits are a last resort. WTA supports improvements to protect public safety. However, we would like the Forest Service to engage in a broader discussion with stakeholders to identify alternative solutions that ensure everyone has access to Dog Mountain and all the wonderful hikes in the Columbia River Gorge trail system.

This is a vital recreation corridor, even more so with the closures of other trails as a result of the Eagle Creek Fire. We hope that the Forest Service will work to develop a solution that will rise to meet the growing demand and provide access to everyone.

Good for WTA!

[Water]

Hell, people will book things for an extra day ahead to get it over the weekend, and not show up the first day. I even have seen this in state parks, spots booked online and nobody shows up.. it sits empty. That's not good usage.

Are you saying people are paying for 3 nights and only staying the latter two? No doubt the USFS/State Parks see that as good usage. They get 3 nights revenue and nature gets 2 nights human impact.

I suppose they may look at that as good usage. There's a lot of things that they've done with the guise of goodness that doesn't pan out for their constituency. For a campground it's not even the nature getting impact necessarily, it's more likely the electricity/water/bathrooms/garbage not being used. I've seen this in national parks too. Took an early season weekend trip to Grand Canyon one year. All sites were booked in the main tenting campground there during the preceding week. We were just going to find NF dispersed camping. The day before some gracious soul decided to actually cancel their reservation. I was able to get it. We fly down there, drive up from Phoenix, get to the campground, big sign saying it is full—wow, glad we got a spot! ...... that night, probably 50 empty spots all around us. Unfuckingbelievable.

Anyways, I've just found online systems to be terribly convenient 'solutions' that end up being terribly ineffective of actually functioning how a lot of people would like to be outdoors (making decisions based on where you find yourself, the weather, and other conditions----not what you're doing behind a computer screen 8 months prior)



Chrisca, you summarized so eloquently and dispassionately what I've seen and felt and attempted to communicate... the FS seems to basically eschew their responsibilities for trails, contract out to non-profits, and then those non-profits are in a position where taking a hard position that would actually represent their members best would create an adversarial relationship with the government entity they rely on to function.

NWFP is such a terrible endeavor. The NW Demo Fee was created/written by 'outdoor' companies like skidoo, coleman, airstream, etc, who formed an outdoors coalition. As mentioned here by...I forget who, direct knowledge that MHNF zero'd out the existing trail budget with emergence of the NWFP, instead opting to just use those revenues. But they aren't enough, and as evidenced by just taking a look at the first year's reports vs as the current, the focus has difted far from trails. Boat ramps, puppet shows, special use permits.

well, that's thread drift onto my other complaints...

[Bosterson]

the FS seems to basically eschew their responsibilities for trails, contract out to non-profits, and then those non-profits are in a position where taking a hard position that would actually represent their members best would create an adversarial relationship with the government entity they rely on to function.

Thank you, I've been trying to make this case about TKO for a few years. Per the "public participation" angle, it does seem like we're about due to have someone found an access based advocacy group that would aim not to do work for the FS, but rather to get the FS to actually do the work it's supposed to be doing, as well as preserving access to public lands without (unnecessary) fees or quotas. Obviously the NWFP is BS; this Dog permit system is also BS inasmuch as they apparently have instituted it without consulting local stakeholders (thanks for speaking up, WTA!) and they're not solving the "problem" they claim (why not just crack down on illegal parking on SR 14?), nor are they addressing the issue of opening other closed areas that could be used to disperse crowds.

I called the Viento SP ranger last week and left a message asking why the park is closed "because of the fire," when the fire was many miles west of that. I got a message back that the "Forestry Department" makes the actual decision about opening trails and they hope the trails will be opened when the park opens on April 13. (My understanding was that Viento's campground would be closed over the winter, not the "park." Maybe these are the same thing; however, closing the trails is inexplicable with no fire damage anywhere near there.)

The Dog Permit FAQ has this hilarious dodge about why they're doing a permit quota rather than reopening closed trails:

Why is the Forest Service limiting use at Dog Mountain when so many trails in the Columbia River Gorge are closed because of the Eagle Creek Fire?
The Forest Service has been working with our partners at Washington Department of Transportation, Washington State Police, Skamania County Chamber of Commerce, and the Gorge Tourism Alliance to develop a permit system that allows for the continued public use and enjoyment of the Dog Mountain Trail System while also providing for visitor safety along State Route 14. Visitors who are unable to reserve a permit online, can access the Dog Mountain Trail System via shuttle from the Skamania County Fairgrounds.

[justpeachy]

Thanks to the costs of all the wildfires it doesn't seem like the Forest Service has extra resources to put towards trails. They spent more than $2 billion on fighting wildfires in 2017.