Preventing the next fire

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
jley
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by jley » September 6th, 2017, 12:59 pm

BigBear wrote:No amount of signage or fines can stop bad behavior if the threat of consequence is not enforced often and publicly.
This is exactly my point - the consequences need to be enforced. That's why we should encourage people to report these things with a reward.
BigBear wrote: It is posted everywhere that fireworks are illegal all of the time in national forests, national parks, national monuments and wildlife refuges. The signage had no impact on preventing either Eagle Creek fire this summer, even 60 days after the first fire broke out at Indian Creek. It's amazing to anyone with a positive IQ how a 2nd fireworks fire could have resulted after the first fire had closed the trail at 4-Mile Bridge. It truly boggles the mind.
All signs are NOT equal. A poorly designed or placed sign is worthless. A good one is effective. I can't say that my design on this thread is great, but I hope that others can improve it. Just because the current signs didn't deter this catastrophe does not mean that signs are ineffective. It's a combination of signs, education and laws that need to be improved, strengthened and enforced.

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retired jerry
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by retired jerry » September 6th, 2017, 1:11 pm

Maybe good stories about the people affected.

Including the people that let off the fireworks.

Maybe identify areas where fireworks aren't so risky, like beaches along the Columbia.

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BigBear
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by BigBear » September 6th, 2017, 1:32 pm

Sorry, Jerry, beaches along the Columbia are not safe from fires. I do recall as a teenager at a marina during 4th of July weekend many years ago that an errant bottle rocket (not me, i was too cheap to buy fireworks when others did) came to rest on a grassy area and started a fire that required the fire department to respond.

It does not take much when the grass and foliage is dry.

There simply needs to be an outright ban of fireworks in the summer (like California seems to have in the counties surrounding Yosemite and Sequoia, as I recall on a 2000 trip). I would also like to see a ban of cigarettes and cigars on public lands as well. I do not know if this will happen, but the enforcement of "illegal disposal of burning material" (e.g. tossing of a cigarette out a car window) could be a reality.

It's just a question of much the rest of us want to have hot ash drop out of the sky onto our car and roof or drive-by roadside fires before we demand a change in behavior of others.

On a similar note, people who like to blow smoke in others' faces, I one simple reply: "I don't spit in your face, so don't spit in mine."

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retired jerry
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by retired jerry » September 6th, 2017, 2:36 pm

Yeah, good point, I was just brainstorming :)

I would be happy if no one let off fireworks. Or cigarettes/cigars.

If there were some areas where it was safe, and the result was less damage, that would be a good thing. Except young adult males probably wouldn't consider that fun, better to do it where it's not allowed.

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kepPNW
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by kepPNW » September 6th, 2017, 5:15 pm

jley wrote:
BigBear wrote:No amount of signage or fines can stop bad behavior if the threat of consequence is not enforced often and publicly.
This is exactly my point - the consequences need to be enforced. That's why we should encourage people to report these things with a reward.
Yeah, enforcement is the issue. It's not necessarily ignorance. We certainly all know using a cellphone while driving is both illegal and stupid. Ever heard of anyone cited for it? Contempt for the laws, especially by those charged with enforcing them, means little to no compliance.

Offering a bounty on people who put others in jeopardy may serve all the bloodlust needs expressed these last few days better, and actually take a step towards reducing (can't be eliminated, admit it) the risk, than any other suggestion I've heard yet.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

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Bosterson
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by Bosterson » September 6th, 2017, 9:15 pm

kepPNW wrote: Offering a bounty on people who put others in jeopardy may serve all the bloodlust needs expressed these last few days
I hear lynch mobs do a fine job of serving that need, and they don't burden the pocketbook of the taxpayer.

And if "eyes on the ground" are needed (my impression was that plenty of "eyes" witnessed this event), then I believe the NSA has an app for that. (But bringing everyone into the fold as Stasi-style informants is definitely a more feel-good solution.)

Certainly, the "no fireworks" signs at trailheads are on par in terms of effectiveness with "no littering" signs. As Matt has previously suggested here regarding illegal camping at Jeff Park, slapping people with large fines would potentially deter people via word of mouth - but only if the FS had the enforcement manpower - and budget - to carry it out. (People tend to obey laws when they think there's a good chance of being caught.)

As noted, though, there is a vestigial mindset in this country that to go outdoors requires you to have a fire, regardless of whether fires are allowed. (We saw 2 fires at Mirror Lake in the Wallowas last month. Every trail into that area has signs warning that fires are prohibited.) This problem requires re-education efforts, similar to promoting Leave No Trace. People simply need to be discouraged from having fires at all. Campgrounds with metal firepit infrastructure are one thing (that said, the last time I was at a campground, our neighbors packed up and drove off leaving their fire embers smoking - I spent some time pouring water on them), but the next generations need to be taught that fires do not belong in the backcountry basically ever.

However, this was not a campfire run amok: as mind-bogglingly inconceivable as throwing fireworks into dry brush during a heatwave is, this was still just kids being dumb. There is no magic solution for that, as children (keep in mind - a 15 year old is a child) literally do not (yet) have the part of the brain that enables them to make smart decisions. I doubt there's an amount of money you can offer strangers that will provoke them to "physically" intervene (America has ingrained norms against interfering with others, not to mention that this potentially runs afoul of assault laws). The first step to reduce the danger of fireworks I can think of is the same one proffered by the Merc: as fireworks are currently illegal in Oregon, Washington needs to step up and join the party. Certainly people can buy them online, etc etc etc, but statistically, you make it difficult for people to buy fireworks anywhere near here and the prevalence of fireworks in this area drops to near zero. I will let the Merc weigh in on what society has to lose by banning fireworks:
...the pros and cons of fireworks... wrote:CONS
[...among others]
  • They, on occasion, can burn down close to 5,000 10,000 32,000 acres of gorgeous and scenic land (so far), cause unimaginable damage to our natural resources, cause unimaginable strain to our public resources, create states of emergency, bring our infrastructure to a skidding halt, make the air unfit to breathe, block traffic, disrupt commerce, potentially ruin the tourism-based economies of our small towns, strand 153 hikers overnight in an incredibly dangerous and traumatic event, decimate sites that bring pride and wonder to the region, threaten our homes, dirty our streets, kill untold thousands (perhaps millions?) of wild animals and insects, encroach upon our vital water supply, and make vast swaths of pristine wilderness uninhabitable for all living things.
PROS
  • They momentarily distract the most primitive part of our lizard brains with 1 to 2 seconds of sparkly lights and boom sounds. End of list.
#pnw #bestlife #bitingflies #favoriteyellowcap #neverdispleased

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fetch
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by fetch » September 6th, 2017, 9:52 pm

Bosterson wrote:There is no magic solution for that, as children (keep in mind - a 15 year old is a child) literally do not (yet) have the part of the brain that enables them to make smart decisions.
I must have been some kind of super-teenager, then. I don't know about anyone else but at fifteen, I had a driver's permit and a job - two in the summer. I was making smart decisions like not having sex or offspring, not committing crimes (including setting illegal forest fires), not getting arrested, not doing drugs, and not getting drunk/drunk driving every single day. I was also making smart decisions like going to school, getting respectable grades, and figuring out what I wanted to go to college for.

Oh, yeah. And I came from lower middle class socioeconomically and was a latch key kid of a single parent who worked graveyard and relied on my older siblings to raise me while sleeping most of the day. In the 90s...the 1990s, not 1890s, for the record. Dang, were my parents ever so lucky and never appreciated it in the moment, eh?

Can you tell I am so very tired of this argument, that has come into vogue in the past 10-15 years? Tell someone older than ten often enough that they can't possibly be responsible for their own actions because reasons (your brains can't possibly be done cooked yet youngin'!) and pretty soon, they're going to start agreeing with you. A fifteen year old human being, barring developmental disorders or major untreated mental disease, is perfectly capable of knowing you don't lob lit fireworks into the wilds four miles below where a fire already is occurring. To suggest otherwise is a disservice to every 15 yo who has absolutely "adulted" at that age.
Last edited by fetch on September 6th, 2017, 10:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Webfoot
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by Webfoot » September 6th, 2017, 10:27 pm

Applause for fetch.

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fetch
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by fetch » September 6th, 2017, 10:38 pm

Meh...I suffer from engaging fingers before engaging brains sometimes. I truly don't mean to rant or type potentially 'fightin' words' (like what is sometimes common on another regional hiking forum I can think of).

I was going to edit that out of existence as a form of retraction before anyone read it after ruminating on its nature...too late! :\ So it stays. So it goes.

I do not mean to criticize anyone in particular, just an idea that's become amplified thanks to the very platform we rely on to host this website. Repeated to the point it is threatening to become a permanent part of our (the US) culture. And I don't happen to agree with since I've yet to see the peer reviewed and majority consensus science that supports it.

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Bosterson
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Re: Preventing the next fire

Post by Bosterson » September 6th, 2017, 11:02 pm

"Responsible for their actions" (like legally) isn't the same thing as "has a fully developed prefrontal cortex," and the latter does not preclude the former. And conceivably, your extremely responsible childhood could indeed be highly representative of, like, all children everywhere, but, y'know, there's this statistical problem with case studies... (Ever think that maybe you are the outlier?) If you want to start making an argument about legally equating minors with adults, I think you may find neuroscience and the Supreme Court are against you. My point is only that aside from enforcing actual fines, the simplest solution for preventing fireworks-caused wildfires is banning fireworks, which - see above - have no other redeeming value aside from burning down swaths of the forest. So much of this discussion has centered on "criminals" and individual behavior and punishment, but I feel like waxing poetic about bloodlust and revenge for a 15 year old seems a bit... I dunno... inappropriate? Especially when there are more systematic solutions available.

Don't get me wrong, I cannot possibly conceive of throwing a lit firework into a tinderbox forest during a heatwave, and a lot of places in the Gorge that I know intimately or had plans to explore may have just been turned to ash, which is not a prospect that brings me a lot of joy. I'm not trying to start a flame war here; mostly, I was trying to jab Karl, because sometimes he needs it. :)
#pnw #bestlife #bitingflies #favoriteyellowcap #neverdispleased

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