Mt St Helens Institute

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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maobie15
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by maobie15 » August 9th, 2017, 10:20 am

My husband and I hiked the Loowit Trail Jul 28-30 and we saw a group coming back from the crater while we were taking a snack break.

The hike leaders (NO idea if this is a volunteer position or not) were very nice and helpful.

The big thing I noted was how BIG the group was. It seemed to be about 20 people which frustrated me quite a bit. I knew the price tag to be led to the crater is quite expensive and that keeping impact down is one of the reasons it has to be guided. Any sort of travel with 20 people is going to leave a big impact, regardless if that is on trail or off trail.
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drm
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by drm » August 9th, 2017, 1:47 pm

Don Nelsen wrote:The excuse that the road gets a lot of traffic and the public needs to be off of it until "repairs" are made is completely bogus. If that were so, nearly every road in the county would be closed.
Here is the official explanation from the FS website.
Forest Road 99 remains CLOSED to motorized traffic beyond Bear Meadow Viewpoint. FR99 to Windy Ridge remains gated and closed to motorized public traffic due to winter surface damage at a total of 14 sites. Some are individually hazardous enough to warrant closure and collectively they pose a threat to the nature and volume of traffic typical for FR99 to the Windy Ridge destination. Until repairs are completed in mid-August, the roadway does not meet minimum standards for traffic safety. However, the public may hike or ride bicycles on the open lanes until repairs are made.

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Don Nelsen
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by Don Nelsen » August 9th, 2017, 7:58 pm

drm wrote:
Don Nelsen wrote:The excuse that the road gets a lot of traffic and the public needs to be off of it until "repairs" are made is completely bogus. If that were so, nearly every road in the county would be closed.
Here is the official explanation from the FS website.
Forest Road 99 remains CLOSED to motorized traffic beyond Bear Meadow Viewpoint. FR99 to Windy Ridge remains gated and closed to motorized public traffic due to winter surface damage at a total of 14 sites. Some are individually hazardous enough to warrant closure and collectively they pose a threat to the nature and volume of traffic typical for FR99 to the Windy Ridge destination. Until repairs are completed in mid-August, the roadway does not meet minimum standards for traffic safety. However, the public may hike or ride bicycles on the open lanes until repairs are made.

That's what they say but the evidence indicates otherwise. If this same reasoning were to be applied to the rest of the main roads in the county all would be closed.

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Chip Down
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by Chip Down » August 10th, 2017, 7:38 pm

I wonder what would happen if you just drove right up that "closed" road. Even if you got cited, you could say the gate was open when you arrived. You'd still be fined, but I don't think any criminal charges would survive the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

Likewise, I wonder what would happen if I had been caught...umm, excuse me, I meant to say I wonder what would happen if one were caught in the crater without the auspices of a guided tour. I'm sure there are huge potential fines, but I wonder how vigilantly that's enforced. I think there are so few adventurers going in there that the authorities look the other way, especially considering the difficulty of apprehending such rogue hikers.

Funny, I have to believe that the guided tours actually increase the rogue crater explorers, because it gets people thinking "Oh, hey, is it that easy to go in there? I bet I could sneak in." Also, there must be some who say "Well damn, if that crater is okay to be explored by people paying $$$, then I guess it's not so fragile after all, so damn if I'm going to deprive myself."

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Water
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by Water » August 12th, 2017, 1:18 pm

drm wrote:Forest Road 99 remains CLOSED to motorized traffic beyond Bear Meadow Viewpoint. FR99 to Windy Ridge remains gated and closed to motorized public traffic due to winter surface damage at a total of 14 sites. Some are individually hazardous enough to warrant closure and collectively they pose a threat to the nature and volume of traffic typical for FR99 to the Windy Ridge destination. Until repairs are completed in mid-August, the roadway does not meet minimum standards for traffic safety. However, the public may hike or ride bicycles on the open lanes until repairs are made.
It's very clear. The public can't drive it but private organization, sure, no problem. Magic vehicles and all.

Chip Down,

I've been told of amazing hotsprings streams up in the crater that offer magnificent soaking. Sounds pretty personally risky knowing the burn/scald dangers that have happened at hot springs in more benign and less dynamic settings. People go in there. But not many, very, very few.

As for the justification(s) anyone would need for going in there, there's not even anything to rationalize almost. You've got a private organization regularly, exclusively, accessing public lands that the public pays to have protected and maintain access to. With no public input. With no appeals process. It is from everything that is publicly available, an entirely backroom deal. Sure there might be information available through FOIA request, if I knew what that info was.

In places that are highly corrupt, the laws are not respected because they are not practiced and upheld by those who make and enforce them. If my nieghbor cop regularly speeds on our neighborhood street while off duty, commits domestic violence, steals from neighbors, etc and is never held accountable, it makes a mockery of the laws and why would anyone who lives around him think they are anything more than lip service?
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drm
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by drm » August 15th, 2017, 7:48 am

So as I often do in cases like these, I make a call. I called the Volcanic Monument and said that lots of people don't believe the official line on why this road is closed, so who should I talk to. They transferred me to the head road engineer who I left a message for. A few days later (this morning) he called me back. He made these points:
  • Damage to this road stays under snow for months, which exacerbates the problems
  • The state and counties usually have a pot of money available to fix damage serious enough to close a road, the Forest Service does not
  • There are cracks in this road big enough to put your leg into
  • the inner lane is drivable with care but the outer lane is not
  • this road gets a lot more use than most forest roads
  • drivers don't follow rules and it is a huge liability issue - the FS gets sued all the time
It did not occur to me on the phone to mention that roads where one lane is drivable are usually just kept open for that one lane. But he said he was going to email me photos of the road damage in the next couple of days so I will follow up.

I'm not taking sides here on this particular issue but in my experience the most likely answer for conflicts like this are not some sinister plot to protect or enrich the MSHI, but rather what is often called an abundance of caution. Most of us reading this are experienced and know how to keep ourselves safe in dangerous situations and don't want others deciding that for us. But land managers aren't thinking about us when they make these decisions. They are thinking about people lacking in experience and / or common sense.

When I get those photos, I will post them here. The road engineer, Heath Cameron, said he would be happy to talk to anyone about this. You can call the Monument and ask for him, though I wouldn't expect to get right away. He told me he was dealing with the contractors fixing the road.

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retired jerry
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by retired jerry » August 15th, 2017, 8:27 am

thanks for looking into this

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K.Wagner
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by K.Wagner » August 17th, 2017, 11:52 am

I second Retired Jerry's thanks.

I still take the position that if a road is closed to the general public, it is closed to everyone except "officials" who are working to make the improvements. Paying $675 should not unlock the gate.
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Guy
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Re: Mt St Helens Institute

Post by Guy » August 17th, 2017, 1:43 pm

K.Wagner wrote:Paying $675 should not unlock the gate.
EXACTLY!
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