Munra Point fixed ropes?

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johngo
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Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by johngo » March 21st, 2017, 9:47 am

Ropes at the class 4 section at the top of Munra Point have been placed and cut/removed, placed / cut etc. several times over the last few years.

What are your thoughts on this?

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adamschneider
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by adamschneider » March 21st, 2017, 10:18 am

That's a really unnecessary rope. I think that if you can't handle that very short section of scrambling, you probably shouldn't be on Munra Point.

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BigBear
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by BigBear » March 21st, 2017, 11:13 am

All ropes should be removed when the installer's trip is complete.

The reason? Think of it as a safety issue. Why are you using a rope? How much weight are you putting on the rope? How old is the rope? On climbs, even though a rope is guaranteed for x-number of falls, do you really want to keep using the rope in hopes your family can collect if the rope gives before the warranty has been fulfilled? When I see a rope in the woods that has been out in the elements for an undetermined amount of time, I put very little stock in the rope's integrity. In fact, I'll use a tree root before I use an old rope for hoisting myself up and down a section of trail.

You may argue that your favorite swimming hole has a roped tire that has withstood the test of time for a decade. Eventually it will give, and the odds are you won't be the one on the other end of the line (unless its a secret swimming hole and you are the only user).

Other examples of when to be suspicious of aids in the woods: The cables on the Eagle Creek trail are coming out of the rock wall from excessive use, and I'm not willing to put a whole lot of security that they will keep me from going over the edge if I trip. The old log bridge over the outflow of Carpenters Lake (Aldrich Butte) looked quite rotten a few years back and I opted to ford the creek - and only a week later a young woman with much less mass than myself broke the log on her crossing.

Wood rots, rocks crack, ropes fray, etc. Leaving a rope on a semi-technical route does not offer the same safety over time that it did when first installed.

pcg
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by pcg » March 21st, 2017, 2:36 pm

adamschneider wrote:That's a really unnecessary rope. I think that if you can't handle that very short section of scrambling, you probably shouldn't be on Munra Point.
Exactly. Fixed ropes are litter and if you need a rope here... well see above.

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adamschneider
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by adamschneider » March 21st, 2017, 5:58 pm

pcg wrote:Fixed ropes are litter
I wouldn't go that far. I do appreciate them on steep muddy trails like Abiqua Falls. (How is that different? I'm not sure...)

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Bosterson
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by Bosterson » March 21st, 2017, 10:53 pm

pcg wrote:
adamschneider wrote:That's a really unnecessary rope. I think that if you can't handle that very short section of scrambling, you probably shouldn't be on Munra Point.
Exactly. Fixed ropes are litter and if you need a rope here... well see above.
Agreed. Leaving (most) installed "safety" junk outside is like flagging - it's trash that someone else will have to remove. Nylon products are not permanent; they degrade outdoors.

I have long contended that if you need a rope on the very short and easy scramble, then Munra is too much for you. However, I've seen people using rope that they brought themselves - you can loop it over the tree at the top of the gully - but then pull it down after. Leave no trace, etc.

That said, it is easier to climb the gully with both hands... ;)
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Chip Down
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by Chip Down » March 22nd, 2017, 5:09 am

I'm gonna cut that tree down! That'll show 'em. :lol:
Anyway...whenever somebody takes that rope down, I hope they're 100% certain there's not somebody up there who needs it for the descent.

Not sure I understand the argument that if one needs a rope for that chute, then they don't belong on Munra.

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adamschneider
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by adamschneider » March 22nd, 2017, 7:02 am

Chip Down wrote:Not sure I understand the argument that if one needs a rope for that chute, then they don't belong on Munra.
It's not a watertight argument. :)

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Bosterson
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by Bosterson » March 22nd, 2017, 8:09 am

adamschneider wrote:
Chip Down wrote:Not sure I understand the argument that if one needs a rope for that chute, then they don't belong on Munra.
It's not a watertight argument. :)
Leaving aside the philosophical and aesthetic (shall we finally build that tram to the top of Nesmith, first proposed in what, the 20s?, so that those who cannot manage the hike still get to go up there?), a case could be made that a fall from the ridge above, or off the summit stump, would be much worse than a slip down the gully (which for some reason lives in infamy with the Ruckel Ridge catwalk, it's totally baffling), and there's nothing to anchor a rope to up there. People shouldn't be given a crutch to go places they can't safely exit; knowing your ability and staying within your limits are how you keep from hurting yourself.

Chip, you're a mountaineer: imagine all the people who can't seem to walk up or down the slope of the Old Chute in crampons and think the solution is to rope together...
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pcg
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Re: Munra Point fixed ropes?

Post by pcg » March 22nd, 2017, 8:13 am

I've been up Munra Point many times over the past 30 years and have often taken friends who were not hikers or scramblers, just normal fit people. No one ever had a problem in that gully and I never saw a rope there, although I haven't been up there in several years. Munra Point, like Oneonta Gorge, has apparently blown up thanks to the Internet and people posting trip reports, and now it is attracting hordes of people wanting selfies.

Honestly, Fred Beckey would have walked up that gully with no hands and thus it is a Beckey Class 2, and a Class 3 for the rest of us. I can see how someone not used to exploring the outdoors might feel more comfortable with a fixed rope there, but, as others have stated, if that was the case then they shouldn't be walking around up on the ridge, and thus shouldn't have a fixed rope to coax them up there.

Leaving fixed ropes behind is not unprecedented locally (Cooper Spur in the old days), but it has become more of a trend lately. I NEVER saw fixed ropes around until just a few years ago. In the past three years I have found fixed ropes on King's Mt., approach to Rabbit Ears, and at the approach to Yeon Mountain. Sorry to be so blunt, but I consider it litter. It can also become a deathtrap for someone who relies on it after it's spent a year being exposed to UV. I'm in the habit of picking up litter when I hike and will pack out kleenex, Cliff bar wrappers, wire, fixed rope, whatever. I do draw the line at bags of dog poo, however, and I usually resist the urge to destroy cairns.

If you want to install a fixed rope, I have no problem with that. I do it myself. Just please don't leave it behind.
Last edited by pcg on March 22nd, 2017, 8:25 am, edited 4 times in total.

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