The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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mattisnotfrench
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by mattisnotfrench » December 4th, 2016, 12:55 pm

Sean Thomas wrote:
kepPNW wrote:
Sean Thomas wrote:For example, I still post photos occasionally of the Arcadia Cedar but never post a track or give directions etc. Sure someone out there can locate it, but they'll still have to do the work with a map to actually find it as opposed to if I was posting gps tracks and detailed directions.
Well... All it really takes is one Google for the name of that tree, to get a #2 ranked link to this forum, that has a link to a geocaching site (#1 ranked hit), which offers details provided by a member of this site. Not to cast aspersions on her, because the #3 hit goes to a Flickr photo with coordinates embedded. Just saying... it's out there, already.


That's a good point Karl. And doing some research the tree is sort of an interesting case, as it doesn't seem entirely clear whether its actually on state land or not. This was from a Clatsop County Board meeting back in 2013, but in it Astoria District Forester Tom Savage couldn't answer whether or not the tree was actually on ODF property. If it is ODF property it's in a protected parcel for Marbled Murrelet, which is great. And in many minds that probably makes it a great candidate for a spot that shouldn't be shared about online, even if the info is already out there. If it isn't protected, spam posts on fb of(insert hiker) hugging the tree aren't going to help much, I totally get that. But sharing contact info to one of the previously mentioned conservation advocacy groups already mentioned or your local and state government etc might help? Ok ok Im just part of the problem :oops: :lol:


This begs the next question, which is the most harmful? Fb, Instagram, Flickr or (drumroll)Oregon Hikers?! :o :lol:


The info about the cedar is on page 5, bottom half:


https://www.co.clatsop.or.us/sites/defa ... -13reg.pdf
Nobody cares about Flickr anymore but the other three are quite culpable. Instagram is driving traffic the most, but Facebook and the Field Guide and forums are definitely also driving traffic. For all the complaining about the reveal of lesser-known hikes, I've yet to see anybody complain about the vast number of lesser-known hikes available both in the Field Guide here and on Trail Advocates. I personally support both, and use both frequently - but there are others who feel differently.

Again, the closer to a populated area and the easier to access a beautiful place is, the more likely it is to become overrun with people. So the complaining about Oneonta Gorge is justified, but that's just what happens. It's not like this is a Portland-only phenomenon. When I lived in France I saw stuff like this all the time. But I was also able to find many obscure places with more effort and time spent getting away from major metro areas.
Author of Extraordinary Oregon!, PDX Hiking 365, 101 Hikes in the Majestic Mount Jefferson Region, and Off the Beaten Trail. Website: www.offthebeatentrailpdx.com

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Guy
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Guy » December 4th, 2016, 4:39 pm

The effects of fame can also be transitory. There are many hikes that get publicized on this site become very popular for a year or two then faded back into relative obscurity. Four or five years ago you couldn't log on to this site without seeing a new report on the Archer / Prindle Complex or Cedar Mountain
(A lot of them had my name on them :) )

Yes some folks including me are still hiking these routes but in much lower numbers than at their peak of Fame, I think this is a more common scenario than what has happened with Munra for example.
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markesc
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by markesc » June 10th, 2017, 12:17 pm

Well I'm doing my part by:

1) Not crapping out kids (unless someone wants to pay for them, I'm priced out of the market).

2) I don't even bother posting reports on here unless it's a lesser visited area / off season / on a whim and I'm in a good mood.

3) You won't find me on facecrook, instaidiot, snapcrap, or various other forms of "social" media.

4) I've saved a lot on FRUSTRATION by switching to wildlife photography.

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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by markesc » June 10th, 2017, 12:42 pm

mattisnotfrench wrote:I think we're realizing that this is a multi-faceted problem that defies easy explanations. There are a lot of reasons why trails are becoming so crowded these days. Multi-faceted problems require multi-faceted solutions.

Let's keep this discussion going, because we are generating some good ideas here. I know that I'm internalizing a lot of this for future writing projects...
I believe, part of this is a symptom of the urban growth boundary. Stacking everyone on top/next to eachother = pent up demand to get away from eachother = more people on trails? I don't believe humans have evolved to live in such close proximity, but somehow everyone has bought into this idea as if it's a great thing.

When I see a developer come in, mow down all the trees, then stack homes 6 feet from eachother, and then throw in a cheesy tiny footnote of a little greenspace, it's sad. They also should do a better job of connecting the communities to eachother using trail systems. There should be better integration of commercial and residential living so that one can walk to work. (Just for the record, SE Portland is FAR from an example of what I'm talking about and I feel sorry for anyone that's delusional enough to actually live in that hell hole). Intel rant another time!!!

Lastly: There should be tax incentives for corporations to allow people to work from home a few days a week, and can we please move on from the mindless 8am-5pm work day? Again, tax incentives should be put in place. By doing so, you can shift some of the demand for trails from the weekends to weekdays/ off peak times.

I do like that Metro buys up land for places like Cooper Mt, but it's just not enough!!!

*** tax incentives to NOT have kids? do we really need MORE people??? ***

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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by mattisnotfrench » June 10th, 2017, 3:43 pm

markesc wrote:
mattisnotfrench wrote:I think we're realizing that this is a multi-faceted problem that defies easy explanations. There are a lot of reasons why trails are becoming so crowded these days. Multi-faceted problems require multi-faceted solutions.

Let's keep this discussion going, because we are generating some good ideas here. I know that I'm internalizing a lot of this for future writing projects...
(Just for the record, SE Portland is FAR from an example of what I'm talking about and I feel sorry for anyone that's delusional enough to actually live in that hell hole).
I live in SE Portland. I like it. There is nothing wrong with it, other than it's now too expensive for a lot of people. I'm not sure what expanding the urban growth boundary would do, other than foster the creation of yet more urban sprawl and creep.

I think what's driving the crowds more than anything are four factors:
1) Migration to the Pacific NW because of its physical beauty. At my work and through the Mazamas I meet a lot of newcomers to the Portland area, and they almost all cite the natural beauty as the reason they moved here. Can you blame them? Most of the people here did the same, just longer ago. People were complaining about Californians moving here back to the 80s, and before.

2) The Pacific NW is now a popular tourist destination for many, where it wasn't really until 5-10 years ago. I almost never encountered tourists from Europe and Asia on trails before and now it's a very regular occurrence. Add to that people vacationing here from elsewhere in the US, and some places (such as Eagle Creek) now resemble more what you see in National Parks. I like to play the license plate game sometimes while I'm in the Gorge or at a popular trailhead around Mount Hood.

3) Everybody hikes now, for a variety of reasons (Instagram, Wild, desire for fitness, word of mouth, etc). It's popular because it's fun, beautiful, gives you a good workout and impresses others. Young people especially like to go outside now. Popular places become famous due to word of mouth, and even non-hikers go there now because it's cool. It's just an ingrained part of the culture rather than the fringe activity it used to be for many people. Outdoor recreation has always been a huge part of the culture in the Pacific Northwest but over the past 10-20 years it's been mainstreamed in a way it really wasn't before.

4) The internet, which now allows people to discover things online they wouldn't have before.

Yeah, it stinks that places like Eagle Creek and Dog Mountain are so crowded. I wish they weren't. But I'm not really sure what anybody can do about it, other than go somewhere else. It's a huge region and there's enough space for everyone, particularly if you drive further away, are able to go on weekdays, like off-trail travel or don't mind going places in the off-season. And of course, whether you choose to post about a place or not is entirely your own choice. There are lots of trails out there that aren't crowded. Over the past two weeks I've gone hiking twice on trails where I didn't see anybody else the entire day. One was obscure, seldom-maintained and nearly 2 hours away, but the other is officially maintained and only a 70 minute drive from my house in SE Portland. They were both beautiful. There are lots of cool places out there.
Last edited by mattisnotfrench on June 10th, 2017, 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Guy » June 10th, 2017, 5:17 pm

mattisnotfrench wrote:.........
Yeah, it stinks that places like Eagle Creek and Dog Mountain are so crowded. I wish they weren't. But I'm not really sure what anybody can do about it, other than go somewhere else. It's a huge region and there's enough space for everyone, particularly if you drive further away, are able to go on weekdays, like off-trail travel or don't mind going places in the off-season. And of course, whether you choose to post about a place or not is entirely your own choice. There are lots of trails out there that aren't crowded. Over the past two weeks I've gone hiking twice on trails where I didn't see anybody else the entire day. One was obscure, seldom-maintained and nearly 2 hours away, but the other is officially maintained and only a 70 minute drive from my house in SE Portland. They were both beautiful. There are lots of cool places out there.
I pretty much agree with your analysis Matt. I'd just like to add that even the busiest of Gorge trails are only busy a small fraction of the time. This year we hiked Dog Mt. at peak bloom time on a Wednesday evening after work. We saw no more than 20 people, enjoyed Sunset and the best light for photos.

If you arrive at Eagle creek at 6:00am any day of the 7 days of the week you will enjoy a wonderfully quiet hike on the way in, seeing people on the way out is somewhat satisfying knowing you have already seen it all :)

I only feel compelled to stress this point because even the most busy trails are only busy a fraction of the total available hiking time and when we talk about trails being always overrun we encourage the introduction of limitations & permits on ourselves when there are better solutions available.
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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Aimless » June 10th, 2017, 9:16 pm

*** tax incentives to NOT have kids? do we really need MORE people??? ***

I'm not sure that tax incentives would be powerful enough to override the urge to procreate. :(

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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Webfoot » June 12th, 2017, 12:42 am

People in the US aren't having as many children as you may think.
The US population pyramid is starring to constrict.
Having too few children is itself a problem.

Image

Nearly all of the world population growth is in less developed countries.
In the US immigration will soon be the primary source of population growth.

Image

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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by Arturo » June 13th, 2017, 4:01 pm

Guy wrote:
mattisnotfrench wrote:.........
Yeah, it stinks that places like Eagle Creek and Dog Mountain are so crowded. I wish they weren't. But I'm not really sure what anybody can do about it, other than go somewhere else. It's a huge region and there's enough space for everyone, particularly if you drive further away, are able to go on weekdays, like off-trail travel or don't mind going places in the off-season. And of course, whether you choose to post about a place or not is entirely your own choice. There are lots of trails out there that aren't crowded. Over the past two weeks I've gone hiking twice on trails where I didn't see anybody else the entire day. One was obscure, seldom-maintained and nearly 2 hours away, but the other is officially maintained and only a 70 minute drive from my house in SE Portland. They were both beautiful. There are lots of cool places out there.
I pretty much agree with your analysis Matt. I'd just like to add that even the busiest of Gorge trails are only busy a small fraction of the time. This year we hiked Dog Mt. at peak bloom time on a Wednesday evening after work. We saw no more than 20 people, enjoyed Sunset and the best light for photos.

If you arrive at Eagle creek at 6:00am any day of the 7 days of the week you will enjoy a wonderfully quiet hike on the way in, seeing people on the way out is somewhat satisfying knowing you have already seen it all :)

I only feel compelled to stress this point because even the most busy trails are only busy a fraction of the total available hiking time and when we talk about trails being always overrun we encourage the introduction of limitations & permits on ourselves when there are better solutions available.
Exactly.
When I posted last year after climbing South Sister that I thought there should be limits like on MSH, some people replied "just go somewhere else". That's great advice if you don't like crowds.
The Gorge is a short car ride from millions of people. And it's beautiful. Don't see either of those things changing any time soon.
I have climbed Dog over a dozen times and have never experienced a chain of humanity as someone wrote.
Did Nick Eaton Sunday ... looped over the Ridge cutoff and down Gorton Creek. Most under-rated hike in the Gorge IMO.
Saw three people on a Sunday on the Nick Eaton portion and maybe a couple dozen on Gorton Creek.
I can live with that.
I love sharing my love of the outdoors. Anytime I can get a novice out there, I do. They're always in awe. It's good to share.

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Re: The Quiet Pledge: What to do about overcrowding

Post by NoLuck » June 23rd, 2017, 5:22 am

I was just having a conversation about this with a friend and fellow Mazama yesterday- the interest in outdoor experiences, especially with younger people, has exploded in the last ten years. Every time I visit a more popular area. I'm astonished by the lack of respect people have for nature- even just from a safety standpoint. Wednesday I summited MSH and I met so many young people who were dangerously unprepared. MSH Institute really could not babysit you more when you buy a permit to summit. Teenagers who couldn't stay on trail, younger adults with NO GLOVES, people asking me, "what's the ice axe for"?, people summiting in shorts, etc.

I only starting hiking seriously about five years ago, so I've never been up Eagle Creek, Dog Mountain, or Munra. Those areas were over- trafficked and too far gone by the time I got to the party.

I'm a millennial (well, an old millennial) and an instagram user. Reading this conversation has been really interesting to me. I will always post photos of the beautiful trips I go on, but I'll be even more careful about the information I give out.

I think there's a fine line between honorable intentions and elitism to balance here. We may not like or understand the selfie stick crowd- but it's their lack of respect (leading to switchback cutting, litter, lost hikers, dog poop bags and such) that makes them dangerous IMO, not their stupid flip flops and music speakers.

i love the trip reports and I appreciate being able to use them for beta on trail conditions, snow levels, and flower blooms- and I love finding old discussions about off trail adventures and places that aren't in guidebooks. So to think that we might collectively have to move away from that is actually really sad to me

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