Jefferson Park Changes 2016

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
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mattisnotfrench
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by mattisnotfrench » July 15th, 2015, 7:27 am

Aridd wrote:
miah66 wrote:
scrambler2 wrote:
Will these new regs apply to thru hikers? Section hikers?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Unless you have a permit, you won't be camping by the lake at a designated site. You'll have to camp directly on the meadows 20 ft from the trail. :oops: Sorry, what I meant to say was, you'll have to camp off of fragile vegetation 250 feet away from the lakes.

A littlle backstory on that photo: I actually came in the same day as Mattisnotfrench and saw the same thing (thought he was using my photos even ha!), I asked the group leader what was up with it. He apologized and said their group (young boyscouts) tried to make it to Jefferson Park but it got dark on them while descending the ridge, so they setup in the first place they could. Doesn't make it okay, or right, but there's the whole story. I have never seen anything else like it in my numerous trips to the area over the years, so that picture is not a good example of why the reservation or permit system is needed.
If that was one boy scout group then they were too large to be in a Wilderness area. The tent in the foreground looked to me to be 2 people not connected to the boy scout group. There were approximately 20 tents in that little basin, and only a few of them were camping in legitimate sites. That same day I also saw people camping on the wildflower meadows near Russell Lake.

FWIW, when I went to Canyon Creek Meadows last year there were a couple of groups camped on top of the upper wildflower meadows, seemingly oblivious to the excellent sites in the trees just 100 yards away. We have a long ways to go in educating people about wilderness ethics.
Author of Extraordinary Oregon!, PDX Hiking 365, 101 Hikes in the Majestic Mount Jefferson Region, and Off the Beaten Trail. Website: www.offthebeatentrailpdx.com

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retired jerry
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by retired jerry » July 15th, 2015, 7:35 am

occasionally I point out to someone their error, like switchbacking - "you know that causes erosion?"

in some cases it will alter people's behavior

we can't have the FS being the only one doing the educating

another one is toilet paper "flowers". I assume people do that to let other people know there's poop there so they can avoid it. If they knew how gross that was and they should just completely bury it, maybe people wouldn't do that?

rarely, I've seen people leave poop and toilet paper on the surface with no attempt to bury it. That's probably a hopeless case.

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Water
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by Water » July 15th, 2015, 11:39 am

I've assumed when I see TP and no big pile of poo, it was a woman who peed and wanted to use TP. Maybe TMI and there was an argument in the past about this I have no interest in rehashing. Can be phrased "a person urinated and wanted to use TP" is maybe better.
Guy wrote:I could be accused of and perhaps I am being a bit of a conspiracy theorist here but I have come to believe over the last few years that the FS is just as likely to use data from trailhead day use & overnight permits against you as for you. I have altered my behavior & use of them accordingly.
There is certainly FS trend towards more interest in road-side attractions and concentrating people. Road closures and trail closures support that. They say filling out those cards helps them to make a case for budgets and resources. But in this case we have not seen that it has justified any change of budgeting or more resources, in fact the public is now charged $ a bit for accessing what was previously free and it has increased government admin overhead with launching the permit program and having it going. No mention of increased enforcement or improved amenities.

The data provided from one trailhead is a crappy data set. Show it broken down by month over the last 5 or 10 years and you have something that can show a trend that accounts for fire closures and high/low snow years. Last year was a lower snow year as is this year. That is an easy possible explanation for a bump in the numbers. A high snow year in 2016 could mean a drop below these numbers.

If Jeff park is so squarely on their radar, why aren't people getting tickets on friday and saturday nights when there are camps and fires by the lake shore. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel. You know where the people are and what the bad activity is. You can make examples in front of tons of folks and people will know Jeff park as a great area you should respect and not bend the rules. I don't understand why a permit system is superior to this.

In light of no discussion or mention of increased enforcement. It's like Jeff Park is the detroit ranger district's baby, but they don't really want to get their hands dirty. A website will fix it! I'm still at a loss about what is going to stop the same % of folks who camp on flowers, camp by the lakes outside of spots, and make fires, from doing those things without increased enforcement. Is signage mentioning a permit that more effective than a sign that says no fires or no camping next to where someone is camping with a fire?

p.s.: on the thread about permits in goat rocks Tom/Roy speaks about going to Jeff Park for years and it being very popular since the 80's, going on anecdotal visitation stories (though he was not complaining). It is kind of funny people complaining about it being busy based on their own experience-If you don't like seeing tons of people there but you're visiting on a popular weekend trying to catch peak flowers, you're part of your own problem. I don't have a problem with seeing lots of folks at popular destinations during popular times to visit, I expect it.
Last edited by Water on July 15th, 2015, 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kepPNW
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by kepPNW » July 15th, 2015, 11:49 am

mattisnotfrench wrote:In other words, I have no reason to doubt their data collection.
They clearly collected data. On that point we can agree. But your (and their) interpretation leaves much to be desired. Even during our very worst gas shortages, price spikes and terrible recessions, people didn't change their carpooling habits at a rate anywhere near what's suggested by those few data points. At most, you'd see a 5% decrease in SOVs. To claim "good data!" with a 36% jump in vehicle occupancy, one year over the next, is something between fawningly gullible and willfully ignorant.
retired jerry wrote:another one is toilet paper "flowers". I assume people do that to let other people know there's poop there so they can avoid it.
What Matt said. "People" using TP after peeing...
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retired jerry
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by retired jerry » July 15th, 2015, 11:54 am

The next time I see a toilet paper flower I'll have to investigate more :lol:

If a people used toilet paper for peeing, it would be easy to tuck it into the ground. The next time there's measurable rain, it will become unrecognizable.

Rather B Hiking
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by Rather B Hiking » July 15th, 2015, 2:07 pm

retired jerry wrote:If a people used toilet paper for peeing, it would be easy to tuck it into the ground. The next time there's measurable rain, it will become unrecognizable.
After doing a fair amount of trail maintenance with various organizations, I am not so sure about the degradation rate of TP, or the probability of it staying underground if someone does bury it. (Dogs and various wildlife will dig it up.) I used to bury it, now I just carry everything out. The ick factor of triple bagged TP and human waste in my pack is far exceeded by the sheer disgust at the amount of human waste along some of the more popular trails.

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tambli22
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by tambli22 » July 24th, 2015, 1:40 pm

I'm working a seasonal job for the FS in Montana right now and it has been an eye opening experience. The amount of acreage that the FS is expected to cover with the number of employees they have is virtually impossible. There's just no feasible way for them to be everywhere they need to be. I certainly encourage people to contact the local ranger district with complaints and suggestions, but I think it would be even more helpful to contact your senators and representative to ask that the FS receives the funding it needs to hire employees and run its programs effectively.
Last edited by tambli22 on July 27th, 2015, 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Water
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by Water » July 24th, 2015, 9:17 pm

tambli22 wrote:
Water wrote:I'm honestly not sure what the problem is here. If you think that rangers alone will solve the problem, then call the ranger station as often as possible to express your disapproval, and offer an alternative. The Detroit Ranger District is surprisingly open to suggestion, as I have found in the past.
I'm working a seasonal job for the FS in Montana right now and it has been an eye opening experience. The amount of acreage that the FS is expected to cover with the number of employees they have is virtually impossible. There's just no feasible way for them to be everywhere they need to be. I certainly encourage people to contact the local ranger district with complaints and suggestions, but I think it would be even more helpful to contact your senators and representative to ask that the FS receives the funding it needs to hire employees and run its programs effectively.
i did not say this if you don't mind editing your post to attribute it to Mattisnotfrench and not me, please.

No, they can't be everywhere, but if they can say that one specific spot, that encompases a square mile or less (bays and scout lake, really), is their crown jewel and most heavily used area in the whole forest, you'd think that every saturday night, if not friday night too, you'd have a ranger there from when it melts and starts getting popular until labor day or such. And that they wouldn't just try to 'educate' people, but hand out significant fines. People would gain a huge amount of respect and fear for breaking the rules up there and not want to just say 'ahh screw it, ranger mceducator will just give us a critters in the crack puppet show and tell us to move our tent'. A few $1000 fines to the group in front of 25 rule abiding folks in there, when people would share information about jefferson park they'd also say: and don't break the rules!

if i ever come into mindless money, i swear i will pay multiple people to book all permits for maximum duration for every permit reservation site like obsidian, pamelia, jeff, msh. then people can see a fun unexpected outcome of supporting pay to play scenarios.

I'll reiterate back to the Bend Bulletin news article that says:
McMahan said the reservation proposal comes in response to increased use of Jefferson Park over the past three years. From 2012 to 2014, the number of day hikers visiting Jefferson Park went up by 66 percent, and the number of overnight campers increased by 40 percent, according to data from the Willamette National Forest
If this is all they are making their decision on, it is an incredibly poor metric to determine increased use. 2014 and 2013 were not good snow years compared to 2012. 2012 being a higher snow year sets an artificially (and arbitrarily) low baseline from which to gauge access in two proceeding low/lower snow years. would be nice if we could easily see the self-registrations year by year. Why doesn't the FS make that readily available to us since we do fill the forms out diligently? Might be something for a FOIA.
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retired jerry
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by retired jerry » July 25th, 2015, 6:03 am

if you had endless money you could buy all permits and have place to yourself :twisted:

ThePortlandeer
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Re: Jefferson Park Changes 2016

Post by ThePortlandeer » July 27th, 2015, 9:58 am

I skipped from page 3 to 12 so I'm sure I missed 14+ replies that say the same thing as what will follow:

There is a lot of talk about lack of enforcement and the limited number of backcountry rangers available to issue fines and "talking to's" to rule breakers...sooooo...since this thread clearly shows the large number of people who care about the area and use it more regularly than the occasional non-LNT overnighters, WE should ALL be the backcountry rangers.

My fiance jokes that she is going to buy me a fake Wilderness citation pad and possibly a badge based on the number of times I've had conversations with people breaking rules and even non-rule breakers. Even for non-"rule" breakers, I have no problem telling someone that just because you can have a fire doesn't mean you should have one.

The key is to be diplomatic. Never rush to yelling at someone about an infraction, because 8 times out of 10 you learn that some simple ignorance of the rules is at play, not a malevolent disposition that has them bent on ruining the environment.

So, break up and disperse fire rings, drag branches across entrances to heavily used non-trails/restoration areas, put logs and large rocks in illegal tent-sites, tell people they are camped illegally, say something to someone washing dishes in a lake, pick up a few pieces of trash EVERY hike, take photographs of bullet casings and send them to, or at least notify forest service officials of illegal shooting areas (recently found bullet shells in the mt margaret backcountry at Panhandle Lake, as well as fire rings, and called it in to the forest service office in charge of the MSHNVM who were saddened but happy to hear from me about it), and anything else you can think of that makes us good stewards of the outdoors.

...and yes since I just read the thread about self-protection, don't start by yelling like a crazy person or approach crazy looking people. Use good judgment.

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