Reliable map of gated roads?

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Webfoot
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Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Webfoot » August 8th, 2016, 5:36 am

The USGS/FS topo maps are unreliable regarding to road gates, both showing gates that do not exist and of course not showing newly installed gates. Google Maps and GraphHopper will eagerly route right through locked gates, though Google does sometimes manage a "Restricted usage road" warning. Aerial photos may show gates that have yet to find their way onto a map but these are slow to search, not updated for years at a time, and only useful when trees do not cover the road.

Does a better map or database of gate locations exist? If not might we start one for our area?

Lurch
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Lurch » August 9th, 2016, 7:40 am

I don't know of any consolidated full database... There's a lot of different agencies in charge of different gates, between county, national forest, state forest, BLM, private timber, etc... they don't always communicate and share info

Webfoot
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Webfoot » August 9th, 2016, 7:08 pm

I guess you would know! Thanks. Any interest in creating one?

Lurch
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Lurch » August 10th, 2016, 7:22 am

Interest yes... but short of physically going out there and ID'ing the gates it would be difficult to do from map resources alone, as you've seen already.. I'd also like accurate road maps for what's driveable and decomissioned, but that's near impossible in some areas without tons of effort. Especially with random people who seem insistent on clearing out and "restoring" previously decomissioned and abandoned routes intended to go back to nature... That makes it extra fun when people start wandering down "roads" that aren't on anyone's maps!

/rant :lol:

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aiwetir
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by aiwetir » August 10th, 2016, 10:04 am

It's a difficult thing in the mapping world to determine what to do with decommissioned and overgrown roads. The overgrown ones are there after all and there's no good way to mark them afaik. Both Google and OSM have ways to mark roads as gated but OSM is much easier as you click at the gate and add it as a closed gate. Google is a little harder as I think you have to mark the road as a access road or dead end or something.

I recently jumped through a lot of hoops trying to get Google to route to Valley of the Giants properly, and I'm not sure it works right yet. OSM I'm pretty sure does, I also had a hand in trying to get that to work.

So I try to fix all the terrible Tiger imported logging roads that I run across but there are too many. One of my goals is to get most of the roads on public land properly mapped someday.

So yeah, you could say I'm starting this database one logging road at a time, but I don't get around enough to know what's gated and what's not and I'm just one guy. There seem to be maybe a couple dozen active mappers on OSM in the PNW but I seem to be the only one who does a lot of rural roads, trails, and logging roads. Could use the help.
- Michael

Webfoot
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Webfoot » August 12th, 2016, 3:01 pm

Lurch wrote:Interest yes... but short of physically going out there and ID'ing the gates it would be difficult to do from map resources alone, as you've seen already..
I have started creating pins in Google Earth when I am blocked by a gate (or a No Trespassing sign). I am suggesting that if a number of us do this, and pool our information, we might soon have a fairly useful resource.
Lurch wrote:I'd also like accurate road maps for what's driveable and decomissioned, but that's near impossible in some areas without tons of effort. Especially with random people who seem insistent on clearing out and "restoring" previously decommissioned and abandoned routes intended to go back to nature... That makes it extra fun when people start wandering down "roads" that aren't on anyone's maps!
I don't believe I have driven on any of these roads and I surely have not helped to create one of them. The decommissioned roads I have seen have been made thoroughly undrivable by digging the road surface into four foot deep berms or moguls. I don't see how one could "restore" that without heavy machinery. On the other hand I have found that roads that are on the map that have been decommissioned or gated.
aiwetir wrote:Both Google and OSM have ways to mark roads as gated but OSM is much easier as you click at the gate and add it as a closed gate.

So yeah, you could say I'm starting this database one logging road at a time, but I don't get around enough to know what's gated and what's not and I'm just one guy. There seem to be maybe a couple dozen active mappers on OSM in the PNW but I seem to be the only one who does a lot of rural roads, trails, and logging roads. Could use the help.
Perhaps Open Street Map is the best place for this information. However I don't recall seeing gates marked on the OSM-based maps I use? Perhaps I don't know how to read them, or I am using the wrong ones? Or maybe few gates are presently marked? Also is there a way to annotate these gates with additional information? I would like to have seasonal gates marked and annotated as such for example. If OSM does not support this do you think that a KMZ file of waymarks that can be used as an overlay is an appropriate alternative?

Joseph Elfelt
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Joseph Elfelt » August 30th, 2016, 4:16 am

Lurch wrote:I'd also like accurate road maps for what's driveable and decomissioned, but that's near impossible in some areas without tons of effort.
The USFS runs a public-facing GIS server with reasonably good data on open and closed roads. The following link starts Gmap4 and shows a map centered NW of Mt Hood. The basemap is “All white basemap” so you can see the road labels better.

The layer with closed roads is ‘on top’ and therefore clickable. If you click a closed road then you will see a popup with all the attribute data the GIS server has for the thing that you clicked.

To see the map legend and get more tips for using the map, please click “About this map” in the upper left corner.

https://mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php? ... eation.txt

Anyone is welcome to make a Gmap4 link that displays this road GIS data plus gate data. The gate data would have to be in either a KML/KMZ file or in a text file using the delimited format that Gmap4 can read.

And of course the gate data would have to be crowd sourced.

I am happy to provide advice if anyone is interested. And if someone posts a question for me in this thread and I do not happen to see it, please ping me via https://mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4_contact.html

Joseph, the Gmap4 guy

Webfoot
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Re: Reliable map of gated roads?

Post by Webfoot » August 30th, 2016, 4:41 am

Thank you, that is quite a bit easier to read than a roads table. Here it is as a KML overlay for Google Earth: http://apps.fs.fed.us/arcx/rest/service ... pImage.kmz

Unfortunately a quick review shows that this also is not reliable. For example there is a large locked gate on NF-1711 at about 45.5055, -121.4897 which can be seen by zooming in Bing Maps Streetside. (Imagery date 5/19/2015.) Nevertheless the road is not marked as closed in the layer above.

It also doesn't help with non-USFS land of course. I think OSM is probably the best place to put accurate information.

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