Test your navigation skills with the Navigation Challenge

Cartography, maps, navigation, GPS and more.
Lurch
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Re: Test your navigation skills with the Navigation Challeng

Post by Lurch » December 14th, 2016, 5:14 pm

johngo wrote:When I first learned UTM coordinates, I was taught to round off. This just intuitively made sense to me as it would seemingly give you a more accurate position. Then, in researching it further, I read from a couple of fairly reputable sources that you should not round off, but rather truncate. Initially that did not seem to make much sense to me, but I thought OK, I'm hearing it from a SAR team manual, that must be right. So now I teach truncating. Perhaps I will go back to rounding, is ultimately it probably doesn't make much difference.
I'd respectfully disagree with that statement. UTM's should never be truncated, that model is found in MGRS and USNG to describe areas. The only truncation that I've seen on UTM's, and I still don't agree with, is dropping the zone designation from the Easting. I don't know of any regional SAR team that would train or operate that way. I also don't agree with rounding. Why would you do that? What benefit does it give you by intentionally making your coordinates less accurate?
johngo wrote: 25 m accuracy in plotting coordinates is pretty impressive. I am assuming you are using a map romer, or some sort of plotting tool? While some professional users, such as SAR teams, foresters, archaeologists, wildland firefighters, etc. might need that level of precision, I feel that most civilians are going to be fine with about 100 m. For example, ff you need to tell 911 where to send the search party that should be more than sufficient.

25 m accuracy usually requires some additional plotting tools, and in my experience cannot really be done on a standard scale map around 1:25,000 on 8.5 x 11 paper by eyeball alone. I do not encourage most casual users to carry things like a map romer, because they are small, somewhat fragile, and easily lost.
No formal roamers. They're not worth much, and aren't very versatile, I train my people to make a roamer as needed, generally just using the corner of a piece of paper (or the same map) and the graphical scale. (another reason I'm not a huge fan of CalTopos printed maps). A 50m window on a 1:24,000 isn't all that difficult to achieve. Maps aren't always printed at the same scale, photo copies of maps can distort them more. I'd rather give my people the ability to make a reader for any map they're using, and think critically about the methods being used.

Side note, 911 doesn't work in UTM's. I'm not sure who told you that bit. Dispatch, cell pings, virtually all modern technology runs in D.ddd° Lat/Long in WGS84 by default. SAR teams use UTM's due to various pro's and the user friendliness. If you try to give a 911 calltaker UTM's they're going to be extremely confused. From a SAR perspective, it shouldn't matter what format you give coordinates in, they should be able to convert and plot as needed.

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johngo
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Re: Test your navigation skills with the Navigation Challeng

Post by johngo » December 14th, 2016, 7:11 pm

Hi Lurch,

Thank you for offering your expertise here. You clearly know what you're talking about, and for any serious map geeks here, they might benefit from our discussion.

I made a rather long post on this last night, but after some consideration, I am making a big edit now because I believe your view is correct. While in my class I will probably continue to teach people that are rounding off in most situations is probably OK, I changed a couple of slides in the wilderness navigation challenge to show that you should retain all the original coordinate and not around off or truncate.

I appreciate you offering your constructive suggestions in a respectful way, and hopefully others here can learn from both of our points of view.
Last edited by johngo on December 15th, 2016, 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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johngo
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Re: Test your navigation skills with the Navigation Challeng

Post by johngo » December 14th, 2016, 7:18 pm

Also, one more thing:
"No formal roamers. They're not worth much, and aren't very versatile, I train my people to make a roamer as needed, generally just using the corner of a piece of paper (or the same map) and the graphical scale. (another reason I'm not a huge fan of CalTopos printed maps)."

Agreed, I never carry a romer, never met anyone outside ex-military guys who did, and do not encourage other folks to do so.

But I'm not sure I understand your comment about Caltopo maps. Every Caltopo map I have ever seen has a nice bar scale (aka graphical) printed on every map in both miles and kilometers, with the km scale bar divided into 100 meter increments so it's easy to make a romer out of paper in the field. Perhaps I misunderstand your comment, can you clarify?

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aiwetir
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Re: Test your navigation skills with the Navigation Challeng

Post by aiwetir » December 15th, 2016, 6:00 pm

1mm on a 1:24000 (1:25000) map is actually 24 (25) meters. I've always just measured and either rounded up to 2mm = 50 m or 4mm = 100m those 4 meters aren't going to be found on a topo. I always purchase a compass with a mm scale on it for this among other reasons.

Roamers? no need to get a fragile one that's small and gets lost. A number of roamers can be photocopied onto transparencies and then cut out and you can have them all over the place getting in the way, but I don't use them either.

I'll stay out of the rounding/truncating discussion as I just can't really figure out why anyone would do it except as a poor man's way of describing areas when you can't afford to use MGRS or USNG :lol: .
- Michael

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