$36M "restitution" sought from 15 year old Eagle Creek Fire setter

[retired jerry]

For some reason I looked at that article again, for the life of me I know not why

The request is $36M. That is the amount of damages calculated. That's what the law says they're supposed to do.

"From his review of other juvenile restitution cases in Oregon, the judge said the largest amount he could find until now was for $114,000."

I think they should have him do community service. Try to tailor it to how can they best get the message out to other people that might be thinking about doing something like this.

I don't know how you get through the thick skulls of some young adult males.

[Chip Down]

It's interesting to live in a place/time where a single individual can carelessly cause (or be held accountable for) so much damage (in dollars), but can also do so much good (inventions, vaccines, diplomacy/negotiations, etc). Most of us ordinary folks are right in the middle of that spectrum.

I didn't expect the O to delve into the details of how the amount was figured, but they explained more than I expected:

The restitution covers costs of firefighting, repair and restoration to the gorge and damage to homes.

The U.S. Forest Service is seeking $21,113,755 in payments; the Oregon Department of Transportation, $12.5 million; the Oregon State Fire Marshal, $1.6 million; Union Pacific Railroad, $1,048, 877.52, the Trail Club Oregon, $168,000; and Oregon State Parks, $31,550.90.

The other requests for restitution are: Heuker Properties, $100,000; Allstate Insurance, $8,111.44; and several from people who appear to be private property owners, Anne Coxen, $8,793.14; Iris Schenk, whose Warrendale house burned down, $5,000; and Amanda Rosenkoetter, $4,563.72.

As noted above, I think it's a bit hypocritical of the USFS to ever claim damages for anything, considering the way they "manage" their agency.

[retired jerry]

The conditions were ripe for a major fire. Could have been caused by anything. It's happened before. It'll happen again.

We are now part of nature.

It will actually make the gorge healthier to have a fire occasionally.

We should work on the forest/human development interface so that human structures aren't burned down when there's a fire.

I heard they opened some trails out of Starvation Creek. I can't wait to hike up Herman Creek or PCT.

[drm]

As noted above, I think it's a bit hypocritical of the USFS to ever claim damages for anything, considering the way they "manage" their agency.

I'm not sure how you think they manage it but the Forest Service has lost about 90% of it's staffing compared to about 30 years ago and their responsibilities have greatly increased since then. I just learned that Gifford Pinchot lost funding for half their road maintenance staff for this year. They have two full time people for all the roads in Gifford Pinchot National Forest. Of course they also lost vehicles and other equipment too. Note that the fire fighting funding bill that was passed earlier this year does not go into effect until 2020 and only stanches further bleeding from the regular budget into fire fighting. It does not fix what funding was pulled out for fire fighting in the past. Anybody here think they could manage an agency under these conditions?

[retired jerry]

yeah, it's popular to bash the Forest Service. and other government institutions.

I think government institutions are good and bad, like any other big group of humans. But some problems require big groups of people to solve so you inevitably get inefficiencies.

What bothers me is if it's part of a large campaign to defund government programs for the common good so you can have tax cuts for super wealthy. Redistribution of wealth and income.

I'd rather critically review all government programs, get rid of inefficient ones, increase programs that address big problems.

[drm]

And there always will be good and bad in a large agency, certainly including the FS. Criticisms of how closures are handled and many other things are valid in my opinion. It's the broader level of criticism that bothers me. When you combine the almost impossible multi-use mission of the FS with the drastic cuts in funding and staff and the drain from fires, it strikes as an almost impossible task. When I became a programming consultant some years ago, they taught me that if somebody says they need a cheaper price, you talk to them about how to simplify the project and goals and don't over-promise. Seems like the FS has been heading just the opposite way: less money and more responsibility for decades now.

Sorry, Chip, I don't want to be unloading on you. I just had a meeting with the GPNF District Ranger at a Friends of Mt Adams meeting a few days ago and I do think you come away with a different impression.

Btw, in my conversation with the GPNF District Ranger where I learned about some of the details, I also asked about the East Crater closure in IH and it is over. That area is open to visitation when ever you can get in there. At least one piece of good news.

[Guy]

Guy, I think you wanted to say he would have no a big problem getting citizenship if he doesn't have it already. Because they would ask about any trouble with the law first thing he comes to citizenship interview. Same thing with education loans, or getting a good job in the future - the punishment doesn't stop with judge's verdict.

Hey Romann, well what I was saying was if I was faced with a bill that would take all my money for the rest of my life if I stayed in America would I do so if I had the choice of going to another country where I had the right to live and work without this burden.

[Waffle Stomper]

This kind of damage request seems insane. First off, even if awarded, what does it accomplish? It is an unreasonable demand that few if any on the trail could ever fulfill. The possibility in bankruptcy of the parents, since this was a minor is real. I don’t know for certain, but it is possible nothing could be recovered, and no real lesson learned. Frankly, who amongst us always made perfect decisions at the same age of this teenager? Remember, historically another fire, even greater happened here as the result of the indiscretion of a young person, nearly a hundred years ago.

The Gorge was ripe for this. Already there was a fire that eventually merged with this one. Without the wisdom of a Magic 8 Ball, who knows if that one would have eventually crossed over a ridge and had a similar effect even without this young person’s careless act? Then, who would we blame?

Having said that, he and those with him were party to this (perhaps I missed if there were other charged) Is it productive to attach a penalty, that can’t be fulfilled? Would it not be wiser to perhaps levy a penalty of service for restitution? Have we gone so far, that in the long term, we would forsake reason for a vigilante mentality? Short sighted it seems.

And let us not forget the legal costs of dealing with all possible claims, such as the costs of reimbursing possible claims from transportation companies, people who offer tours, Bonneville Power Administration and the Army Corp of Engineers, ODOT, possibly WSDOT, the communities in the Gorge for loss of tourism dollars, USFS, property owners, the list is endless. From a management standpoint this would take forever to resolved.

Just my rant, not further comment coming from me.

[bobcat]

I seriously doubt if the government agencies expect much, if any, restitution in this case. They are required by law to file the claims, and they will have itemized their expenses anyway. This is clearly a case of idiocy not arson, and the judge will rule accordingly.

If I were the boy (or his family), I would be much more concerned about civil suits from private citizens/businesses that suffered property damage or income loss. It might be harder to shake those off even though they might be much lower figures.

[Aimless]

My understanding is that the courts usually manage damage claims that, if claimed in a lump sum would bankrupt the person upon whom the claims are placed, by creating a payback plan that allows the payee to live on restricted means while paying out the award. Because this perpetrator was a minor, there are often allowances for expunging a conviction when they reach 18; this may possibly also wipe out the victim's ability to collect, but I cannot say if it does or doesn't. A lot of extremely vindictive laws against minors were passed in the last few decades, so it's hard to know what kind of sword will be hanging over this kid for the next 70+ years.