hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

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obera
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 23rd, 2018, 1:03 pm

kepPNW wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 12:30 pm
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
Guy wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm
Exactly some people men more than women I think just communicate this way regardless of if they are talking to another man or a woman. Personally I think if the intention is good without malice or condescending tone then they should be accepted as such and taken without offense.
Nobody should take anything how you want them to take it. People have the right to interpret their surroundings how they do. Some might say this is mansplaining.
Which? What Guy's saying, or what you're saying? ;)

I've always said, "People need to earn my disrespect." I respect them by default. If that's what everyone did, this conversation probably wouldn't be happening, right? I think that's not too far off from what Guy's saying, there, albeit not so directly. The "should" probably rubbed wrong, as it well could outside a friendly face to face encounter. But as a general rule of thumb, I find I get a lot less irritated with humanity in general, if I presume the benefit of the doubt on their part. That what they really meant really wasn't so lame as how it may have come out! (Particularly online!) It's hard, sometimes near-impossibly so, but it does save endless grief in the long run.
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
:lol: talking down to trail geezers shouldn't be a thing either. :lol:
Ahh, well, I just roll with it. Kids these days, huh? Passed 23 of them on my way up Silver Star yesterday, arriving on top all alone, despite the TH being absolutely full of parked cars when I arrived. Let 'em eat my dust. :lol:
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 9:13 am
if people compulsively sharing to the point that there's a voice out there saying 'stop mansplaining' - then why keep doing it?
It's what men do. Even (especially?) to other men. :oops:

And, to be sure, while I don't mean to make light of any of this, it does seem that intense focus on the differences that divide us mostly serve to reinforce those divisions. That's the central conundrum here... Finding the balance that actually moves things forward rather than makes them worse.

We do seem to be going in circles. People can see themselves in the 'unsolicited advice' group or not. I'll refrain from bringing up 'toxic masculinity' ;)

"It's what men do" sounds a lot like 'boys will be boys'. It's how society explains away bad behavior. Or, how about this one - he's a nice guy who made a mistake - any number of white men who have sexually assaulted people and gotten off. This one is a slippery slope.
Last edited by obera on May 9th, 2018, 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 23rd, 2018, 1:10 pm

obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 1:03 pm
We do seem to be going in circles. People can see themselves in the 'unsolicited advice' group or not. I'll refrain from bringing up 'toxic masculinity' ;)
Yeah, no need for name calling. :P :lol:
obera wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 1:03 pm
"It's what men do" sounds a lot like 'boys will be boys'. It's how society explains away bad behavior.
Oops! That wasn't my intended meaning at all! (Which certainly serves to amplify another of my points... but I digress.) Recognizing a problem isn't the same as excusing it, by any means. Unless it is, eh? I was only trying again to shine light on the fact that women do not need to feel singled out by this particular behavior.

(Mansplaining mansplaining, am I now? OMG! How deep can I dig this pit?)
Karl
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Guy
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Guy » April 23rd, 2018, 5:22 pm

kepPNW wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 12:30 pm

I've always said, "People need to earn my disrespect." I respect them by default.
This is how I try to live my life too. I try hard not to be offended by a particular comment or action if I believe it was not how it was intended to be received.

Back to the original question of people forming groups of like minded people, I think this has always been human nature.

For the 30 plus years I'be lived in America probably 75% of my friends who I spend time with have the common denominator of being immigrants. Not UK expats or even Europeans but immigrants whether they be from Asia, South / central America, Europe East / West or Australasia. There is no deliberate reason for this it's just how things have always turned out.
hiking log, photos & maps.
Ad monte summa aut mors

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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 23rd, 2018, 6:15 pm

Guy wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 5:22 pm
kepPNW wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 12:30 pm
I've always said, "People need to earn my disrespect." I respect them by default.
This is how I try to live my life too. I try hard not to be offended by a particular comment or action if I believe it was not how it was intended to be received.
When I'm feeling like "I oughta be offended!", I try first to calm down just a bit, and then ask outright... "Is [that] what you actually meant? Did I misunderstand?" Works pretty well in person, but results vary online. :|

Guy wrote:
April 23rd, 2018, 5:22 pm
Back to the original question of people forming groups of like minded people, I think this has always been human nature.

For the 30 plus years I'be lived in America probably 75% of my friends who I spend time with have the common denominator of being immigrants.
From the dawn of humanity, we've banded together into "us" and "them" tribes, originally based largely on unfamiliarity. And what's more unfamiliar than someone who looks different? So this original hatred evolved into racism as we know it today, since providing "classes" of folks to hate makes that ugly task that much easier.

One of the better social transformations I've had the pleasure to watch has been this adaptation of age-old tribalism towards similarities of the mind rather than the body. I think it really got the biggest kickstart it could've with the invention of the internet, which offered us the opportunity to judge others solely on the content of their character and the output of their minds.

Only us old fogies likely remember usenet as it once was... A place where age, gender, body type or color simply didn't matter! What a glorious five years that was. Perhaps the best humanity ever enjoyed.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

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mjirving
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by mjirving » April 23rd, 2018, 8:01 pm

A very interesting discussion between people who I believe genuinely want to do the right thing, but also realize that’s easier said than done.

Coincidentally I tuned into The Dirtbag Diaries podcast this week and listened to the weekly podcast that was on this very topic and was interviewing someone from Portland. How timely is that!?

As a white, middle-aged guy, I find it hard to completely understand and have learned through this thread that some things I might say just to make conversation, could be construed as otherwise as I was totally blind to that.

This podcast may offer additional insight as we work to better understand each other’s point of view.

I also have noticed that both REI and Outside magazine are making a real honest push to diversify intentionally and in a meaningful way. It may not be perfect yet, but it’s a good to see them/us trying. (I remember Backpacker Mag “trying” about a year ago and it was a joke with so many stereotypes.) Hopefully we’re getting there. I appreciate the honest and thoughtful dialog on both sides in this thread.

https://overcast.fm/+Hp9LI3Jg

Mike

pcg
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by pcg » April 24th, 2018, 7:14 am

Thanks for sharing the link to that podcast Mike. So happy to hear about mankind progressing. And, as much as I like to be alone and search out places where I see few people, I'm also happy that more and more folks are getting out.
Last edited by pcg on April 24th, 2018, 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

CMH
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by CMH » April 24th, 2018, 7:37 am

I think diversity in a bunch of categories that are irrelevant in the hiking community is a backwards goal. A much better goal would be perfect homogeneity in the hiking community in the only thing that matters - everyone wants to hike hikes (tempered with the goal of avoiding overcrowding).

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Bosterson
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Bosterson » April 24th, 2018, 8:48 am

CMH wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 7:37 am
I think diversity in a bunch of categories that are irrelevant in the hiking community is a backwards goal.
Backwards from... what? Hiking's prominent place in the book "Stuff White People Like?"
A much better goal would be perfect homogeneity in the hiking community in the only thing that matters - everyone wants to hike hikes (tempered with the goal of avoiding overcrowding).
As opposed to now, where hiking is used as, like, corporal punishment for miscegenators? (Or maybe just failing to pay their taxes? I do see a lot of people grimacing as they "crush the miles" on Dog Mountain, so maybe that explains it.)

Please elaborate on your idealistic vision for making hiking something that people "want" to do.
Will hike off trail for fun.

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obera
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 24th, 2018, 9:04 am

CMH wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 7:37 am
I think diversity in a bunch of categories that are irrelevant in the hiking community is a backwards goal. A much better goal would be perfect homogeneity in the hiking community in the only thing that matters - everyone wants to hike hikes (tempered with the goal of avoiding overcrowding).
It may be irrelevant to you, but that doesn't make it so for others. It illustrates opportunity for you to explore understanding others.
oh-beer-ah

BigBear
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by BigBear » April 24th, 2018, 11:35 am

Wow, what an exchange

The three takeaways I have from conversations of the past decade are:

1) Everyone says they want to be free to think and act the way they want...but they also believe it mandatory that other people take what is shoved at them. In other words, only my beliefs are moral, and the consequences of my actions should either be tolerated or embraced.

2) The Platinum Rule is preposterous. The Golden Rule we learned as children was to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The Platinum Rule is to "do unto others as they want to be undone to them." Sounds great if the "others" are willing to reciprocate. Unfortunately, we are becoming an increasingly narcissistic society where your expectations of an even exchange of respect won't happen.

3) Social media has only magnified the disrespect people say they feel (real or imaginary). Concepts such as slander, libel and due process have disappeared into mob rule. The endorphins people feel from blogs like this are stronger and more addictive than narcotics.

So feel your next high and respond. You know you want to. And to be validated...just like cocaine.

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