hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

[Charley]

Overheard on Mt St Helens this morning:

Thin, tall white man: "So, is this your first time to climb Mt St Helens?"

Older woman: "Well, this will be my 31st time."

My partner and I got a huge laugh about this, partly because we just had a long, enlightening conversation about this thread. I'm sure the man meant well, but I'm now far more aware of the unintended effects of that kind of questioning, and I'm going to have to be more choosy about the things I say to people.

[Waffle Stomper]

I've been following this thread for awhile and find it interesting both in subject matter and length of time that it has been active.
As a mature, single, straight, white female I find this is behavior not limited to the trail. It happens everywhere, even at work (pretty easy to nip that in the bud there). I do find it interesting when perfect strangers chime in when out and about. I can't tell you how many times I've been out photographing something and a man will feel it necessary to come up and tell me how I should set my camera, like I've never done so before. Or, to retell a story from my friend who was photographing camas flowers in a Salem park, a man walked up to her and said "That's a pretty expensive camera you have, I hope you know how to use it."
I have just learned to shake my head and roll my eyes and don't engage. This is not just a hiking thing, it's societal.

[obera]

Overheard on Mt St Helens this morning:

Thin, tall white man: "So, is this your first time to climb Mt St Helens?"

Older woman: "Well, this will be my 31st time."

My partner and I got a huge laugh about this, partly because we just had a long, enlightening conversation about this thread. I'm sure the man meant well, but I'm now far more aware of the unintended effects of that kind of questioning, and I'm going to have to be more choosy about the things I say to people.

I love this story so much and how clearly it illustrates the situation. Thank you for sharing. I really wish I could have been there.

I've been following this thread for awhile and find it interesting both in subject matter and length of time that it has been active.
As a mature, single, straight, white female I find this is behavior not limited to the trail. It happens everywhere, even at work (pretty easy to nip that in the bud there). I do find it interesting when perfect strangers chime in when out and about. I can't tell you how many times I've been out photographing something and a man will feel it necessary to come up and tell me how I should set my camera, like I've never done so before. Or, to retell a story from my friend who was photographing camas flowers in a Salem park, a man walked up to her and said "That's a pretty expensive camera you have, I hope you know how to use it."
I have just learned to shake my head and roll my eyes and don't engage. This is not just a hiking thing, it's societal.

Sadly, it is everywhere. Women are finding their voices more and more to squash the b.s. and be agents of change. Sometimes I ignore it or brush it off, sometimes I say something. Depends on the situation.

I did TDH on Saturday and was thrilled to see a lot of diversity on the trail. Languages, genders, body shapes and sizes etc. All of it.

Most of the people were delightful. So happy to be out. Just saying hi etc. On that final stretch just before the summit three separate men told my friend and I were almost there. Zero women made any such comments. The women just said hi.

[mjirving]

Totally agree with your comments and have been really interested in this thread to be more self-aware of my comments to all people. Regarding your “almost there” thing at the end...that may be more of a guy thing to all types. I historically would make comments like that to all types on my way down just as a small-talk word of encouragement, regardless of the person I saw on the way down. Now that I understand that it can be taken potentially as an unwanted comment, I’ve stricken it from my vocabulary. I was totally naive to that in the past. -Mike (I also understand that some people may use that comment in a more profiling matter for people they view as struggling, or perceive as struggling, so I’m not trying to discount your comment, just saying that I bet many are simply naive to how it comes across) Lesson learned by this naive guy.

[Don Nelsen]

While nearing the top of Dog Mt. last week, a guy said to me "you're almost there". I hear this from time to time but I sure don't understand how this could in any way be considered offensive. I never tell anyone this as such comments seem to me to be unnecessary but if some folks want to say it, what is the problem?

dn

[Guy]

Amy, so I respectfully ask.
Where you or your friend offended by the "almost there" comment? I know you deem it unnecessary but where you offended by it? I've had it said to me many times by both men and women & I've also said it on occasion to others equally to both Men & Women as idle chatter.

I say it to Chiyoko on almost every hike but that's different because I'm normally lying then

[Aimless]

The whole question of who gives offense intentionally, who gives it unintentionally, who takes offense, who declines to take offense, who seeks to take offense, and the multifarious motives and reasons for any or all of these social interactions, is a deep one without an apparent end. About all I can say is that if someone says they are offended, it is best and easiest to take them at their word.

This default outcome might conceivably be abused from time to time in order to claim a moral high ground that gives the offended person a slight edge in an argument over social niceties, but as a default it works almost 100% of the time to render the best outcome. This is rarely a high stakes game and far less harm comes from conceding the point than from disputing whether the offense is justly taken.

[obera]

While nearing the top of Dog Mt. last week, a guy said to me "you're almost there". I hear this from time to time but I sure don't understand how this could in any way be considered offensive. I never tell anyone this as such comments seem to me to be unnecessary but if some folks want to say it, what is the problem?

dn

Well, people can technically say anything. But that could be a slippery slope into toxic masculinity if there are people suggesting it's offensive and it's disregarded.

People never tell me I'm almost there when I'm walking to the grocery store. Why do it on the trail?

Amy, so I respectfully ask.
Where you or your friend offended by the "almost there" comment? I know you deem it unnecessary but where you offended by it? I've had it said to me many times by both men and women & I've also said it on occasion to others equally to both Men & Women as idle chatter.

I say it to Chiyoko on almost every hike but that's different because I'm normally lying then

There are lots of ways it can be taken. I'll answer your question and turn it back on you. Why say it? Do you say it to everyone even the white cis het uber male hikers?

I wasn't offended. I rolled my eyes. It wasn't necessary. Why say it? Did my friend and I look lost or confused? Did we look fat and like we were having a hard time making that last climb? Were they just excited to tell us we were close to the view they'd just seen?

It varies. To me it's on the shoulder of mansplaining.
Why not just say hi?

[Guy]

There are lots of ways it can be taken. I'll answer your question and turn it back on you. Why say it? Do you say it to everyone even the white cis het uber male hikers?

Thanks Amy, well I definitely don't say it to everyone it's one of many casual greetings / comments I may or may not make to people on the tail along with comments about the weather, condition of the trail etc, etc. Idle chit chat! I can say honestly though that whether I say it or not has nothing to do with the persons sex, size or shape. I'm just as likely to say it to a man or a woman & I've had men and women of all ages say it to me. I see it as a camaraderie thing with others doing the same thing (hiking).

I wasn't offended. I rolled my eyes. It wasn't necessary. Why say it? Did my friend and I look lost or confused? Did we look fat and like we were having a hard time making that last climb? Were they just excited to tell us we were close to the view they'd just seen?

I'm glad you were not offended by it, if you heard it from me it would be said in the spirit of sharing the experience with a fellow hiker.

It varies. To me it's on the shoulder of mansplaining.
Why not just say hi?

Well I guess we just see things slightly differently but not by much. Too me only saying Hi for fear of offending someone just seems very impersonal to me. I feel it leads to people not wanting to talk to each other for fear of upsetting someone. Not looking to change any minds here. Just my view.

[mjirving]

The grocery store analogy is apples and oranges. I don’t encourage people on the way to the grocery store as it’s a mundane trip that people do in their sleep. My intent in encouraging people to the summit of something is that it’s hard work for all of us, and yes, I’m an equal opportunity encourager. Just like at an athletic event when you cheer people on at the finish line encouraging them to give it their all as they are almost there. That’s probably the root of it for me personally as that was always common practice to cheer people on, particularly in the long distance stuff when they were working hard to achieve a goal. I had this happen to me in triathlons and marathons when I was younger, and observed it even in high school athletics like when I did cross-country. It never occurred to me that it would be construed any other way. Having said all that, I liked the comments a few posts above about not assuming everyone has that reaction and the burden is not on them to understand my intent. So, I don’t plan to do that anymore, and I’m grateful for this new understanding. I still plan to smile and say hi and chit chat if I get a positive response as obviously this shouldn’t be taken as black and white to stop talking to people, which hopefully we all can clearly see and understand.