hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

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Webfoot
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Webfoot » April 27th, 2018, 3:07 pm

kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
obera wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 7:41 am
I was on my way to Paradise Park once and at a junction doing something with my pack or poles. Some guy stopped and began giving me directions and information and telling me what to do where. I was probably just getting a snack or adjusting a layer and in no way indicating distress. The guy probably talked for 5 minutes. Unsolicited. Unneeded.
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)
Yeah, from your description that's not "mansplaining" but spray, and I've been on both ends of that; I don't think it plays favorites with sex.

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obera
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 28th, 2018, 4:37 am

CMH wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 10:35 am
obera wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 9:04 am
CMH wrote:
April 24th, 2018, 7:37 am
I think diversity in a bunch of categories that are irrelevant in the hiking community is a backwards goal. A much better goal would be perfect homogeneity in the hiking community in the only thing that matters - everyone wants to hike hikes (tempered with the goal of avoiding overcrowding).
It may be irrelevant to you, but that doesn't make it so for others. It illustrates opportunity for you to explore understanding others.
That's a nice platitude, but I don't think you actually live by it, or at least you have a double standard. If you were truly interested in learning from others I don't think you'd be so picky about the tone or modality of learning - e.g. you complain about what you call mansplaining (I think you mean explaining by men), but I'm sure they're just trying to impart knowledge to you and be helpful, but I think you just don't like the tone of it, and probably have a bias against men from the get go it seems sense you use gender biased terms like mansplaining. It's like if I said what you're doing in this thread is womansplaining. Why do you have to make everything about gender and race and sexual preference? That's just divisive. Why not focus on what hikers have in common - that they want to hike?
I've thought about if or how to respond to this comment.

I'll start by saying that the original article this thread stems from is regarding marginalized groups on the trail and the lack of diversity and acceptance this hiker felt. The conversation was largely between cis het white men so I attempted to help explain from a different perspective.

You have some strong language in your response that is polarizing. And what some might call toxic masculinity. There is another article floating around written by a local hiker who left the PCT last summer due to toxic masculinity.

The key word regarding mansplaining is 'unsolicited'. If someone doesn't ask for advice or help, don't give it. It's simple.
CMH wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 1:48 pm
Bosterson wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 12:30 pm
CMH wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 10:30 am
Backwards in the sense that we should encourage people that want to hike to hike and not aim for some demographic profile of what we want the hiking community to be. ... it doesn't matter.
Straw man arguments are fun, but to my knowledge, no one has advocated conscripting the populace to become hikers in order to fulfill some kind of demographic quota. If my assessment is inaccurate, please cite evidence to the contrary.

Additionally, you are (inexplicably) presuming that there is not an overlap between the hypothetical "demographic profile" and "people that want to hike." I would assume that people of all ages, genders, abilities, orientations, and ice cream flavors are out hiking because they.... want to hike. If this sounds inaccurate to you, please cite evidence of "diversity" hikers who are being forced to hike against their will.
CMH wrote:Why do you have to make everything about gender and race and sexual preference?
What is this "everything" to which you refer? This is one (somewhat mundane) topic on a small, pretty local hiking forum. 99.99% of all other topics in this form are about flowers, ticks, poison oak, and the Gorge fire. I honestly cannot think of a single topic on this forum where this issue has previously ever been discussed.

It's your business if you, personally, feel threatened by changing demographics. However, inasmuch as you (claim) to be in support of people who "want" to hike, what if there are people who want to hike but are either intimidated or unable to participate for various socioculturaleconomic reasons? If those people want to hike, it seems like - per your own admission - you should be in favor of them getting outside. And if they want to hike but are (currently) unable to, talking about why they are unable to hike seems relevant.

If discussing those reasons broaches topics that you do not like or are uncomfortable with (like the changing of cultural norms), feel free to completely ignore this totally optional topic you chose to participate in. Telling us you don't think we should talk about these issues at all because (presumably) you don't like them is not, actually, a discussion point.

Btw, nice ice cream analogy. I recall that certain flavors of ice cream couldn't vote or hold property, and other flavors weren't allowed to work outside of the house, and yet other flavors were killed or put in jail based on which kind of toppings they liked. When ice cream rights groups start arguing about which ice cream flavors get to sit in the front or back of the ice cream case, such guidance about the complex intersectionality of the frozen dairy sector will be very helpful. :geek:
And you inexplicably assume that the current hiking community demographics aren't representative of those that want to hike. It seems you think there's some conspiracy to intimidate or shun certain groups from hiking. I'm not complaining about changes in demographics - you're misrepresenting my comments, I'm saying it's irrelevant and don't think it's wise to racialize hiking like it seems most other things are racialized, and made to be about gender, etc. Why can't we just hike and let others hike and not vie to manage the demographics towards some perceived ideal makeup? What ever happened to people not seeing race and treating everyone equally? Now we have to treat each separate group uniquely to get the proportions right it seems.
If all races (and marginalized groups) were treated with equal respect and understanding that would be great. That doesn't exist currently. It isn't about proportions. It's about respect.
Webfoot wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 3:07 pm
kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
obera wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 7:41 am
I was on my way to Paradise Park once and at a junction doing something with my pack or poles. Some guy stopped and began giving me directions and information and telling me what to do where. I was probably just getting a snack or adjusting a layer and in no way indicating distress. The guy probably talked for 5 minutes. Unsolicited. Unneeded.
Y'know, sometimes this happens, even when you're not female. ;)
Yeah, from your description that's not "mansplaining" but spray, and I've been on both ends of that; I don't think it plays favorites with sex.
I don't know what spray is. Can you help with a definition?
oh-beer-ah

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retired jerry
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by retired jerry » April 28th, 2018, 5:41 am

"The key word regarding mansplaining is 'unsolicited'. If someone doesn't ask for advice or help, don't give it. It's simple."

I rarely have given unsolicited advice and it usually didn't end well. You got to wait until someone asks for advice, but even that can go poorly. Of course maybe I should just worry about myself :)

"If all races (and marginalized groups) were treated with equal respect and understanding that would be great. That doesn't exist currently. It isn't about proportions. It's about respect."

That really resonates with me.

This thread - people are respecting each other at least to some degree. Maybe the subject is exhausted, everyone has made their point...

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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 28th, 2018, 5:55 am

retired jerry wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 5:41 am
obera wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 4:37 am
If all races (and marginalized groups) were treated with equal respect and understanding that would be great. That doesn't exist currently. It isn't about proportions. It's about respect."
That really resonates with me.
Yeah, me too, although I'd remove the divisive qualifiers and just say "people" instead.

As long as we insist on separating people into arbitrary groups, based on innate or imagined differences, friction points will be there. The disrespect and lack of understanding begins when we assign "others" their tag.
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

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retired jerry
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by retired jerry » April 28th, 2018, 6:18 am

"just say "people" instead"

yeah

although that's easy for us entitled white males to say. There are groups of people that have been disrespected in the past. Maybe we have to acknowledge that in order to move on.

Maybe you need truth before you can move on to reconciliation

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obera
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by obera » April 28th, 2018, 6:24 am

retired jerry wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 6:18 am
"just say "people" instead"

yeah

although that's easy for us entitled white males to say. There are groups of people that have been disrespected in the past. Maybe we have to acknowledge that in order to move on.

Maybe you need truth before you can move on to reconciliation
This. Yes. Thank you!

Karl I'd definitely love to chat more about this irl sometime.
retired jerry wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 5:41 am
"The key word regarding mansplaining is 'unsolicited'. If someone doesn't ask for advice or help, don't give it. It's simple."

I rarely have given unsolicited advice and it usually didn't end well. You got to wait until someone asks for advice, but even that can go poorly. Of course maybe I should just worry about myself :)

"If all races (and marginalized groups) were treated with equal respect and understanding that would be great. That doesn't exist currently. It isn't about proportions. It's about respect."

That really resonates with me.

This thread - people are respecting each other at least to some degree. Maybe the subject is exhausted, everyone has made their point...

Honestly, I thought it was finished...

With that said I'm always happy to chat about equality. But perhaps in person is best going forward. :)
oh-beer-ah

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kepPNW
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by kepPNW » April 28th, 2018, 6:42 am

retired jerry wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 6:18 am
There are groups of people that have been disrespected in the past. Maybe we have to acknowledge that in order to move on.

Maybe you need truth before you can move on to reconciliation
Of course. It is our history as a species.

Figured I didn't need to mansplain that one! ;)

At least to the nice, civil folks here. :)

obera wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 6:24 am
Karl I'd definitely love to chat more about this irl sometime.
I'd like that, Amy! Very much.

Let's find another trail to share, sometime soon. :)
Karl
Back on the trail, again...

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BurnsideBob
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by BurnsideBob » April 28th, 2018, 7:52 am

obera wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 4:37 am
There is another article floating around written by a local hiker who left the PCT last summer due to toxic masculinity.
That would be this: https://vanessapamela.com/2018/02/05/i- ... -about-it/
An interesting read.

obera wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 4:37 am
If all races (and marginalized groups) were treated with equal respect and understanding that would be great. That doesn't exist currently. It isn't about proportions. It's about respect.
Yes, respect.

I had a really nice post all written out but then saw the conversation had taken a different turn while I was writing!

I do think this discussion will live on because it touches on why we, as individuals hike, and, as the differences are huge, there is a certain tension between hikers worthy of future campfire discussion!

And there are other dynamics IMOP. One is that there is an outback conduct of behavior. My second real job was in an extremely isolated area. There was an understanding that you helped out if you came across anyone in need (this was before cell phones). And I think this still applies to hiking too, especially when you get one or more days in from the nearest road.

Happy trails!
I keep making protein shakes but they always turn out like margaritas.

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Charley
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Charley » April 29th, 2018, 9:37 pm

Bosterson wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 12:30 pm
If discussing those reasons broaches topics that you do not like or are uncomfortable with (like the changing of cultural norms), feel free to completely ignore this totally optional topic you chose to participate in. Telling us you don't think we should talk about these issues at all because (presumably) you don't like them is not, actually, a discussion point.
:lol:
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Waffle Stomper
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Re: hiking community fails to embrace fat queer hikers

Post by Waffle Stomper » May 2nd, 2018, 6:58 am

kepPNW wrote:
April 21st, 2018, 12:42 pm
obera wrote:
April 20th, 2018, 7:41 am
Oh, and I get told, "almost there!", with some frequency, too. :lol:
LOL, I do too.
"When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe." - John Muir

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